 |
|
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
|
| Post subject: |  |
|
| Pied Piper wrote: | ^ Thanks for your gracious reply earlier pietillidie. I wrote the following post with the joke before I saw that. Of course I meant what I wrote with all respect...  |
No worries  |
|
|
|
 |
rocketronnie
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Location: Reservoir
|
| Post subject: | |
|
It ain't 'alf hot mum.
_________________
"Only the weak believe that what they do in battle is who they are as men" - Thomas Marshall - "Ironclad". |
|
|
|
|
rocketronnie
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Location: Reservoir
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| OEP wrote: | | rocketronnie wrote: | | Bruno wrote: | We'll have to agree to disagree.
Just make sure you again shriek "racism" next time you see an ad for Vodka which contains white people who are distinctly NOT Russian drinking the advertised product...
Afterall, how dare Absolute include white people in their ads.... for all it does is perpetuate the stereotype that Russians drink too much alcohol. |
If the people are stereotypicaly protrayed as Russians - dour, fur hats etc then you may have a point. if they are portrayed neutrally or in a way that makes them not readily identifiable as members of a particular ethnic group, then your argument is worth as much as a crushed KFC chip on the floor of the food hall at Southland. |
Going by that theory then shows such as The Cosby's, The Big Bang Theory, Two and a Half Men, etc were /are either racist, sexist or some other kind of "ist". The same could also be said of the comic strip Footrot Flats or Peanuts, as are some of the books written by Clive Cussler, James Patterson, Larry Bond, Tom Clancy and many others.
If you want something more recent the look no further than Avatar which has been accused by some journalists in America of being racist.
The fact is you can find racist undertones or overtones in almost anything, if you wish to look hard enough.
Also your point about an ad involving Vodka and Russians only being racist if the Russians are portrayed as dour with fur hats, etc implies that there aren't dour Russians that wear fur hats etc. Because if there are then would the ad still be racist or accurate ? |
Its easy to deny when you don't want to see it.
Me'tink it fits.
_________________
"Only the weak believe that what they do in battle is who they are as men" - Thomas Marshall - "Ironclad". |
|
|
|
|
David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| pietillidie wrote: | In response to PP and David, that matter has never been about stereotypes or cognitive generalisations. It's about how these can be commandeered to damage people and relationships (perhaps what PP meant when he used the word "dogma").
I can privately stir my best mate about being a typical humourless German because we have a relationship in which that largely extinct stereotype plays no actual role, and certainly no negative role in his life and our relationship. On the other hand, calling Leon Davis a "typical lazy Aboriginal player", when that discourse is enormously damaging to Aborigines, is quite a different matter.
I'm not even sure why this needs stating.
Asian culture is instructive in this regard. At a certain depth, all assumptions break down and we're left with relationships, not logic or laws or assumptions which float about in the universe detached from people's lives and feelings. Get the relationship right, and the rest will take care of itself.
| David wrote: | | But in this case, it's not even West Indians or Black Americans who are outraged by this ad - it seems more like a whole lot of white people getting offended on their behalf. Perhaps this is because the majority of West Indians/Black Americans just aren't quite uptight enough to give a shit about this stupid ad. |
I wouldn't be too confident of this. There are plenty of offended black people, but a foreign ad is obviously trivial given more pressing issues and centuries of colonial rule no less! If you read interviews with minorities they often mention they don't retaliate to offense originally of course because it could've gotten them killed, and later because they were just plain tired of talking to a brick wall and in fact gave in and assumed the role assigned to them by their overlords. As I said to Joel above:
| pietillidie wrote: | | ...it's a pretty basic fact that offense is expressed differently between groups, or denied, unstated or resigned to even when it is taken. For example, in many instances Asians will not show offence and the other party is left wondering why the relationship fell by the wayside (we all in fact do this to some degree to avoid confrontation). This issue is a major theme of postcolonial literature; what do we do when so many people seem to accept something offensive? Am I wrong for taking offence when he doesn't? How can I take offence when in so many ways I admire the conqueror and desire to be like them? The issue not as straightforward as it looks. |
In fact, I think I understated this. It is very well-known in intercultural relations and postcolonial studies that the offended party frequently does not show offence to the offender. |
Thanks for the response - I must confess that in many ways I am yet to completely get my head around this issue.
After reading the section that you quoted within your own post (i.e. that different groups take offence in different ways), I wonder if the debate needs to be reframed slightly (indeed, this may already be what you're proposing - forgive me if I missed it): rather than seeing stereotyping as a tool of oppression or barrier preventing mutual understanding, perhaps we need to see it as part of a bigger issue involving the need for more refined methods of international communication and greater promotion of empathy for those from different cultures.
That's more of a diplomatic/governmental issue, however. How do we regulate that within a society? How should it be applied to advertising, entertainment or art? Ought we have restrictions on the level of appropriate offensiveness in each respective category, and how do we measure how offensive something is - the offence taken by a certain proportion of a group, the most offended individual from that group, or something else? The issue is made more complex by the fact that different individuals react differently, and there is a great potential within human nature to be hyper-sensitive about things. In a globalised society, is it wise to encourage or foster that?
Personally, I'm at a loss to come up with a solid, simple solution to any of those questions. At least with advertising, we can remove much in the way of morals and ethics from the debate and discuss it within the frame of pure capitalism - e.g. how effective is the ad in question, and does any potential to offend contain the risk of hurting customer turnover? I don't think a corporation like KFC would see any benefit in risking losing customers or public image over an ad designed to momentarily amuse (the easily amused) and promote their product.
Therefore, were they unwise to create an advertisement that, if completely misunderstood, could be manipulated into an offence in the minds of some people? Perhaps, but in this case we have to take into account mischievous media organisations looking to stir up controversy wherever it does or doesn't exist. I think it's regrettable that anyone has bought into the controversy, because it is obvious that (1) KFC did not attempt to offend, that (2) a reading of the ad in context removes potential to offend, and that (3) as racial stereotypes go, black people enjoying chicken is a pretty long way down the scale of offensiveness. I think it is constructive to point out things that are racist, or that mischievously or even accidentally promote stereotypes with the potential to further enhance discrimination or mock people of a certain race or culture; but the vibe I seem to get with this ad is not a shocked "hey, that was racist," but instead a "hey, I can kind of see how this ad could be twisted into a race issue." Allowing oneself to entertain the latter thought for more than a few seconds plays into the hands of the kind of media organisations that have far more guile and create far more damage than poor old KFC would ever be capable of.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
|
|
|
|
punkologist 
Barwick goals, the pies are home!
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Location: Level 2 Ponsford Stand
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Proud Pies wrote: | | totally agree with that article.....does that make me racist? |
I totally agree with that article too.
I also think many people are missing the point with this KFC thing. Only somebody that can not see past colour or race would see that add as racist.
Most people just see it for what it is, West Indian cricket fans. the fac that they are black is insignificant unless you are someone who fails to see past race and colour. |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| punkologist wrote: | | Proud Pies wrote: | | totally agree with that article.....does that make me racist? |
I totally agree with that article too.
I also think many people are missing the point with this KFC thing. Only somebody that can not see past colour or race would see that add as racist.
Most people just see it for what it is, West Indian cricket fans. the fac that they are black is insignificant unless you are someone who fails to see past race and colour. |
Hey, snap.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
Dark Lord 
He's back...
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Location: Parts Unknown
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| rocketronnie wrote: | | It ain't 'alf hot mum. |
Mind Your Language
_________________
"There's an old saying in Tennessee, I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee, that says, fool me once, shame on... shame on you. Fool me... you can't get fooled again." - Oscar Wilde |
|
|
|
|
jack_spain
Joined: 03 May 2008
|
| Post subject: | |
|
What a sad sad world we live in.
You do realise don't you that Fawlty Towers and The Life of Brian couldn't be made in this day and age.
Basil Fawlty - the most racist character in comedy history (and a Tory to boot). 
Oh well, I guess we'll just have to put up with Austin Powers' lame double entendres instead. Or worse still, Adam Sandler or Will Ferrell. God help us. |
|
|
|
|
rocketronnie
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Location: Reservoir
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| jack_spain wrote: | What a sad sad world we live in.
You do realise don't you that Fawlty Towers and The Life of Brian couldn't be made in this day and age.
Basil Fawlty - the most racist character in comedy history (and a Tory to boot).
Oh well, I guess we'll just have to put up with Austin Powers' lame double entendres instead. Or worse still, Adam Sandler or Will Ferrell. God help us. |
Rubbish. Both Fawlty Towers and Life of Brian were satires. Fawlty's presentation was meant to be laughed at and the satire lampooned Fawlty's extreme views as "To Death Us Do Part"'s writers did with Alf Garnett, and which the writer's of South Park have continued to do since. There is no reason why such satiric material could not be produced now. Most people are intelligent enough to recognise a satiric portrayal when they see one (though it seems you fail to see it or recognise its significance)
if you consider Fawlty "the most racist character in comedy history" you obviously never watched "Till Death Do Us Part" then. Garnett's regular diatribes against coons, pakis, the Irish, and the pope to name a few were hilarious, incisive and extremely well obeserved. And they probably did more to challenge bigotry and xenophobia in the UK at the time than any official measure did.
Once again all your doing is peddling Neo-Con 'end of civilisation as we know it' hyperbole. I wouldn't mind seeing a comedy featuring a bunch of paranoid Neo-Con clones in denial and attempting to turn back the tide of human development and being swamped in the process. The bathos would be excruciating! 
_________________
"Only the weak believe that what they do in battle is who they are as men" - Thomas Marshall - "Ironclad". |
|
|
|
|
rocketronnie
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Location: Reservoir
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| punkologist wrote: | | Proud Pies wrote: | | totally agree with that article.....does that make me racist? |
I totally agree with that article too.
I also think many people are missing the point with this KFC thing. Only somebody that can not see past colour or race would see that add as racist.
Most people just see it for what it is, West Indian cricket fans. the fac that they are black is insignificant unless you are someone who fails to see past race and colour. |
What are the West Indian cricket fans doing in the ad?
_________________
"Only the weak believe that what they do in battle is who they are as men" - Thomas Marshall - "Ironclad". |
|
|
|
|
Proud Pies 
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
|
| Post subject: | |
|
too many words in this thread to read it all 
_________________
Jacqui © Proud Pies 2003 and beyond |
|
|
|
|
Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Proud Pies wrote: | | too many words in this thread to read it all |
tl;dr version : KFC ad isn't racist, however it may perpetuate a racial stereotype. Long debate on racial sterotyping and perception of race and the danger of sub conscious racial discourse analysis leading to ingrained social racism. |
|
|
|
|
Proud Pies
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: Knox-ish
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Wokko wrote: | | Proud Pies wrote: | | too many words in this thread to read it all |
tl;dr version : KFC ad isn't racist, however it may perpetuate a racial stereotype. Long debate on racial sterotyping and perception of race and the danger of sub conscious racial discourse analysis leading to ingrained social racism. |
lol, thanks for the abridged version
_________________
Jacqui © Proud Pies 2003 and beyond |
|
|
|
|
CP
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: Melbourne
|
| Post subject: | |
|
At the end of the day, what makes anyone on this planet so pharquing special that they should never be "offended?"
Seriously, unless you are vilified, abused or blatantly marginalised you should STFU and get on with it.
We waste so much time, effort, debate, money and eventually, ineffective government poilcy on trying to ensure that nobody gets offended. Nobody gets their feelings hurt FFS!
What a bunch of softcoques! |
|
|
|
|
Pied Piper
Joined: 20 May 2003
Location: Pig City
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| jack_spain wrote: | What a sad sad world we live in.
You do realise don't you that Fawlty Towers and The Life of Brian couldn't be made in this day and age.
Basil Fawlty - the most racist character in comedy history (and a Tory to boot).
Oh well, I guess we'll just have to put up with Austin Powers' lame double entendres instead. Or worse still, Adam Sandler or Will Ferrell. God help us. |
Can I base a satire around your character j_s? You're starting to resemble Basil a bit yourself...
_________________
"The greatest thing that could happen to the nation is when we get rid of all the media. Then we could live in peace and tranquillity, and no one would know anything." - Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
|
|
The Rules
FAQ
Usergroups
Calendar
Search
Log in
Register
