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Bruno
Joined: 19 Sep 2003
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We'll have to agree to disagree.
Just make sure you again shriek "racism" next time you see an ad for Vodka which contains white people who are distinctly NOT Russian drinking the advertised product...
Afterall, how dare Absolute include white people in their ads.... for all it does is perpetuate the stereotype that Russians drink too much alcohol. |
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London Dave 
Ješte jedna pivo prosím
Joined: 16 Dec 1998
Location: Iceland on Thames
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| Absolut is Swedish |
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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| Proud Pies wrote: | | totally agree with that article... |
x2
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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KFC passes as nutrition before that piece passes as analysis. All of those simplistic observations have been dealt with in this thread. If you're not going to deal with the cognitive processes which enable us to simplify the world yet which at the same time hijack our relationships with others by controlling their identities and therefore constraining them socially in often undesirable ways, then you're not serious about understanding this issue.
Just because something is complex or you can't cope with it doesn't mean it's wrong. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Give me an example. What? |
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rocketronnie
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Location: Reservoir
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| pietillidie wrote: | KFC passes as nutrition before that piece passes as analysis. All of those simplistic observations have been dealt with in this thread. If you're not going to deal with the cognitive processes which enable us to simplify the world yet which at the same time hijack our relationships with others by controlling their identities and therefore constraining them socially in often undesirable ways, then you're not serious about understanding this issue.
Just because something is complex or you can't cope with it doesn't mean it's wrong. |
He prefers Original Fillet to Hot n Spicy! 
_________________
"Only the weak believe that what they do in battle is who they are as men" - Thomas Marshall - "Ironclad". |
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rocketronnie
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Location: Reservoir
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| Bruno wrote: | We'll have to agree to disagree.
Just make sure you again shriek "racism" next time you see an ad for Vodka which contains white people who are distinctly NOT Russian drinking the advertised product...
Afterall, how dare Absolute include white people in their ads.... for all it does is perpetuate the stereotype that Russians drink too much alcohol. |
If the people are stereotypicaly protrayed as Russians - dour, fur hats etc then you may have a point. if they are portrayed neutrally or in a way that makes them not readily identifiable as members of a particular ethnic group, then your argument is worth as much as a crushed KFC chip on the floor of the food hall at Southland.
_________________
"Only the weak believe that what they do in battle is who they are as men" - Thomas Marshall - "Ironclad". |
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Pied Piper 
Joined: 20 May 2003
Location: Pig City
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| pietillidie wrote: | KFC passes as nutrition before that piece passes as analysis. All of those simplistic observations have been dealt with in this thread. If you're not going to deal with the cognitive processes which enable us to simplify the world yet which at the same time hijack our relationships with others by controlling their identities and therefore constraining them socially in often undesirable ways, then you're not serious about understanding this issue.
Just because something is complex or you can't cope with it doesn't mean it's wrong. |
Pietillidie, I am sympathetic to your sentiments in principle but I do think there are bigger targets on the battlefield worthier of your aim, and I also think you would win more converts speaking plainer English, which you are smart enough to do without dumbing down anything you say.
Right-wingers use stuff like this to shriek about political correctness at every opportunity to advance their own agendas. I'd prefer to keep a sense of perspective, and not give them ammunition by making a fuss over an advertisement that was never intended for the US in the first place.
There are real social problems to be addressed that need more of our energies (and yours) than this.
_________________
"The greatest thing that could happen to the nation is when we get rid of all the media. Then we could live in peace and tranquillity, and no one would know anything." - Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen |
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OEP 
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Location: Perth
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| rocketronnie wrote: | | Bruno wrote: | We'll have to agree to disagree.
Just make sure you again shriek "racism" next time you see an ad for Vodka which contains white people who are distinctly NOT Russian drinking the advertised product...
Afterall, how dare Absolute include white people in their ads.... for all it does is perpetuate the stereotype that Russians drink too much alcohol. |
If the people are stereotypicaly protrayed as Russians - dour, fur hats etc then you may have a point. if they are portrayed neutrally or in a way that makes them not readily identifiable as members of a particular ethnic group, then your argument is worth as much as a crushed KFC chip on the floor of the food hall at Southland. |
Going by that theory then shows such as The Cosby's, The Big Bang Theory, Two and a Half Men, etc were /are either racist, sexist or some other kind of "ist". The same could also be said of the comic strip Footrot Flats or Peanuts, as are some of the books written by Clive Cussler, James Patterson, Larry Bond, Tom Clancy and many others.
If you want something more recent the look no further than Avatar which has been accused by some journalists in America of being racist.
The fact is you can find racist undertones or overtones in almost anything, if you wish to look hard enough.
Also your point about an ad involving Vodka and Russians only being racist if the Russians are portrayed as dour with fur hats, etc implies that there aren't dour Russians that wear fur hats etc. Because if there are then would the ad still be racist or accurate ?
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A Collingwood supporter since the egg was inseminated. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Pied Piper wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | KFC passes as nutrition before that piece passes as analysis. All of those simplistic observations have been dealt with in this thread. If you're not going to deal with the cognitive processes which enable us to simplify the world yet which at the same time hijack our relationships with others by controlling their identities and therefore constraining them socially in often undesirable ways, then you're not serious about understanding this issue.
Just because something is complex or you can't cope with it doesn't mean it's wrong. |
Pietillidie, I am sympathetic to your sentiments in principle but I do think there are bigger targets on the battlefield worthier of your aim, and I also think you would win more converts speaking plainer English, which you are smart enough to do without dumbing down anything you say.
Right-wingers use stuff like this to shriek about political correctness at every opportunity to advance their own agendas. I'd prefer to keep a sense of perspective, and not give them ammunition by making a fuss over an advertisement that was never intended for the US in the first place.
There are real social problems to be addressed that need more of our energies (and yours) than this. |
Mate, I'm always happy to take counsel from someone like you, no problem, and I agree with what you say to a considerable degree.
To be fair to myself, I have assumed we're now more exploring ideas than debating the ad. And as I said to jack_spain, I sympathise with the view that it's getting all too hard not to offend people. But such is life under multipolar globalisation, so we'd better get used to it.
My initial post in the thread is my practical reaction to the incident (the person who created the ad is socially daft and professionally incompetent), while the rest is an exploration of underlying/related issues. I have also greatly simplified discourse theory - you should see what it usually reads like 
My essential point is that if we don't grasp the depth of our assumptions and the processes which distort our conceptions of others then many of the real social problems you refer to will remain unsolved or be solved violently. And given the rise of China and India, that resolution may not be in our favour. |
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Pied Piper
Joined: 20 May 2003
Location: Pig City
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It should be remembered that most humour relies on shared understandings about people even if they are wildly inaccurate. Sometimes this is used to satirical effect (eg South Park; political cartoons); sometimes it's reactionary and occasionally it's downright offensive, usually when the powerful use their positions to keep the downtrodden in their place.
This joke which just landed in my inbox relies on old stereotypes of every nationality it describes, and while I was initially inclined to ignore it I found myself reading and laughing anyway. I happened not to find the KFC ad especially funny (I thought it was just lame), but when we lose our sense of humour entirely, our ideology has slipped into dogma, and IMO that's a dangerous place to be.
Anyway:
| The Joke wrote: | The English are feeling the pinch in relation to recent terrorist threats and have raised their security level from "Miffed" to "Peeved."
Soon, though, security levels may be raised yet again to "Irritated" or even "A Bit Cross." The English have not been "A Bit Cross" since the blitz in 1940 when tea supplies all but ran out. Terrorists have been re-categorized from "Tiresome" to a "Bloody Nuisance." The last time the British issued a "Bloody Nuisance" warning level was during the great fire of 1666.
The Scots raised their threat level from "Pissed Off" to "Let's get the Bastards" They don't have any other levels. This is the reason they have been used on the front line in the British army for the last 300 years.
The French government announced yesterday that it has raised its terror alert level from "Run" to "Hide". The only two higher levels in France are "Collaborate" and "Surrender." The rise was precipitated by a recent fire that destroyed France 's white flag factory, effectively paralysing the country's military capability. It's not only the French who are on a heightened level of alert. Italy has increased the alert level from "Shout loudly and excitedly" to "Elaborate Military Posturing." Two more levels remain: "Ineffective Combat Operations" and "Change Sides."
The Germans also increased their alert state from "Disdainful Arrogance"
to "Dress in Uniform and Sing Marching Songs." They also have two higher levels: "Invade a Neighbour" and "Lose".
Belgians, on the other hand, are all on holiday as usual, and the only threat they are worried about is NATO pulling out of Brussels.
The Spanish are all excited to see their new submarines ready to deploy. These beautifully designed subs have glass bottoms so the new Spanish navy can get a really good look at the old Spanish navy.
Americans meanwhile and as usual are carrying out pre-emptive strikes, on all of their allies, just in case.
In the southern hemisphere, New Zealand has also raised its security levels - from "baaa" to "BAAAA!" Due to continuing defence cutbacks (the air force being a squadron of spotty teenagers flying paper aeroplanes and the navy some toy boats in the Prime Minister's bath), New Zealand only has one more level of escalation, which is "Shit, I hope Australia will come and rescue us".
Australia , meanwhile, has raised its security level from "No worries"
to "She'll be right, mate". Three more escalation levels remain:
"Crikey!", "I think we'll need to cancel the barbie this weekend," and "The barbie is cancelled". So far no situation has ever warranted use of the final escalation level. |
_________________
"The greatest thing that could happen to the nation is when we get rid of all the media. Then we could live in peace and tranquillity, and no one would know anything." - Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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I confess that I laughed out loud several times reading that.
If stereotypes (not only racial, but cultural, political, religious or really any kind of observational comedy) weren't parodied, would there be much in the way of humour left? I've often been of the opinion that just because someone is offended, doesn't mean they ought to be - after all, there are some people out there who like to get offended a lot.
I find it ironic when we (rightly) mock Christian family groups for getting their knickers in a twist about Life of Brian or Californication, yet when their Muslim counterparts reacted in an utterly disproportionate manner towards a few Danish cartoons, there was a lot of leftist concern and fence-sitting going on. But in this case, it's not even West Indians or Black Americans who are outraged by this ad - it seems more like a whole lot of white people getting offended on their behalf. Perhaps this is because the majority of West Indians/Black Americans just aren't quite uptight enough to give a shit about this stupid ad.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Bruno
Joined: 19 Sep 2003
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Agreed David.
I think the white people who are getting offended on black peoples behalf in this instance are actually inadvertently patronising black people. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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In response to PP and David, that matter has never been about stereotypes or cognitive generalisations. It's about how these can be commandeered to damage people and relationships (perhaps what PP meant when he used the word "dogma").
I can privately stir my best mate about being a typical humourless German because we have a relationship in which that largely extinct stereotype plays no actual role, and certainly no negative role in his life and our relationship. On the other hand, calling Leon Davis a "typical lazy Aboriginal player", when that discourse is enormously damaging to Aborigines, is quite a different matter.
I'm not even sure why this needs stating.
Asian culture is instructive in this regard. At a certain depth, all assumptions break down and we're left with relationships, not logic or laws or assumptions which float about in the universe detached from people's lives and feelings. Get the relationship right, and the rest will take care of itself.
| David wrote: | | But in this case, it's not even West Indians or Black Americans who are outraged by this ad - it seems more like a whole lot of white people getting offended on their behalf. Perhaps this is because the majority of West Indians/Black Americans just aren't quite uptight enough to give a shit about this stupid ad. |
I wouldn't be too confident of this. There are plenty of offended black people, but a foreign ad is obviously trivial given more pressing issues and centuries of colonial rule no less! If you read interviews with minorities they often mention they don't retaliate to offense originally of course because it could've gotten them killed, and later because they were just plain tired of talking to a brick wall and in fact gave in and assumed the role assigned to them by their overlords. As I said to Joel above:
| pietillidie wrote: | | ...it's a pretty basic fact that offense is expressed differently between groups, or denied, unstated or resigned to even when it is taken. For example, in many instances Asians will not show offence and the other party is left wondering why the relationship fell by the wayside (we all in fact do this to some degree to avoid confrontation). This issue is a major theme of postcolonial literature; what do we do when so many people seem to accept something offensive? Am I wrong for taking offence when he doesn't? How can I take offence when in so many ways I admire the conqueror and desire to be like them? The issue not as straightforward as it looks. |
In fact, I think I understated this. It is very well-known in intercultural relations and postcolonial studies that the offended party frequently does not show offence to the offender.
Last edited by pietillidie on Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Pied Piper
Joined: 20 May 2003
Location: Pig City
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^ Thanks for your gracious reply earlier pietillidie. I wrote the following post with the joke before I saw that. Of course I meant what I wrote with all respect...
_________________
"The greatest thing that could happen to the nation is when we get rid of all the media. Then we could live in peace and tranquillity, and no one would know anything." - Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen |
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