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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| Mugwump wrote: | ^ the difference between your analogy with people being followed in the supermarket is that the risk is different. Let's say there was evidence that most stealing was done by a small proportion of Fresians. Is it justified to follow all or most Fresians around the supermarket and search them ? No, because the consequences of a security failure - perhaps a stolen chicken - are not worth inflicting minor harassment on innocent people. But when we are trying to prevent the mass murder of maybe 300 people on a plane, the costs of "hurt" (actually minor inconvenience) of those inspected may seem a minor matter. So the analogy is rather flawed.
That said, there are real practical risks in racial profiling, because the terrorists know how to avoid it and so you are distracting yourself and leaving a space for them to walk through. |
Umm, wait a minute... aren't we all checked rigorously for bombs, weapons, knitting needles at airport terminals anyway? This has nothing to do with airport security, surely. It was about whether she was an 'undesirable' in general and suitable for entry into the country. While you can make similar calculations about that, the point remains that she was profiled and that the actual risk she posed to public safety was the same as anyone from her country – i.e. very low.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
You may consider the risk is low, but you're a notoriously bad judge of these things.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | ^ the difference between your analogy with people being followed in the supermarket is that the risk is different. Let's say there was evidence that most stealing was done by a small proportion of Fresians. Is it justified to follow all or most Fresians around the supermarket and search them ? No, because the consequences of a security failure - perhaps a stolen chicken - are not worth inflicting minor harassment on innocent people. But when we are trying to prevent the mass murder of maybe 300 people on a plane, the costs of "hurt" (actually minor inconvenience) of those inspected may seem a minor matter. So the analogy is rather flawed.
That said, there are real practical risks in racial profiling, because the terrorists know how to avoid it and so you are distracting yourself and leaving a space for them to walk through. |
Umm, wait a minute... aren't we all checked rigorously for bombs, weapons, knitting needles at airport terminals anyway? This has nothing to do with airport security, surely. It was about whether she was an 'undesirable' in general and suitable for entry into the country. While you can make similar calculations about that, the point remains that she was profiled and that the actual risk she posed to public safety was the same as anyone from her country – i.e. very low. |
I don't know the case, I just thought your analogy with following black people through a supermarket was flawed vis-a-vis terrorism. Terrorism is such an egregious denial of the human rights of the victims that it may warrant special protocols. Shoplifting is not. I don't think racial profiling works, but if it did, we should consider it rationally given the terrible consequences of failing to spot someone who can kill literally thousands of people.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
You may consider the risk is low, but you're a notoriously bad judge of these things. |
Haha, thanks, but I don't think I'm famous enough to be a notorious anything.  And anyway, who are you to judge?
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| And low but you're a notoriously bad judge of these things is [quotestui magpie]^
You may consider the risk. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | ^
You may consider the risk is low, but you're a notoriously bad judge of these things. |
Haha, thanks, but I don't think I'm famous enough to be a notorious anything. And anyway, who are you to judge? |
I'm someone with a fuckload more experience in risk assessment than you have. 
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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That may well make you a better judge of risk assessment than me, but it doesn't make you a better judge of my judgement of risk assessment, if you catch my drift.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Actually, yes it does. Think about it 
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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Here's another visa-related story, this time with much more harmful consequences:
http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/apr/07/its-a-travesty-family-plead-with-peter-dutton-to-release-father-from-detention
There'll be people who will shrug this off and claim that ASIO know what they're doing. But when the organisation is run with virtually no transparency or accountability, how can you know that? And how would you like it if you were torn away from your family one day and locked up with no explanation and no avenue for appeal? We wouldn't accept that treatment for violent criminals, so why is this acceptable?
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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I don't want my nation's Spy agency to be run with transparency. You know that spies are there to do the worst things, quietly, to keep the nation and you safe. You don't want to know the kinds of things that do, or how they know what they know.
That article is very long and focuses almost entirely on the asylum seeker's story. I think it only needed this line.
"After an adverse security assessment from Asio"
I don't care if he passed 1000 assessments and was on Santa's good list, ASIO acquired information that he was a risk. It's sad for him, but would be sadder if he strapped on a suicide vest and blew himself up in a crowd. That's the kind of risk assessment that ASIO need to make, because it only takes one fuckup, one oversight and 100s or even 1000s will die. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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That's a bit harsh!
Ok so it says he has some radical political views and may be associated with radical activists, I'm reading terrorists here, maybe they are just taking a closer look at it. It seems very strange. But it's one side of the story.
Better to be safe than sorry, I guess. Without more facts from the other side, who is to judge
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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| Wokko wrote: | I don't want my nation's Spy agency to be run with transparency. You know that spies are there to do the worst things, quietly, to keep the nation and you safe. You don't want to know the kinds of things that do, or how they know what they know.
That article is very long and focuses almost entirely on the asylum seeker's story. I think it only needed this line.
"After an adverse security assessment from Asio"
I don't care if he passed 1000 assessments and was on Santa's good list, ASIO acquired information that he was a risk. It's sad for him, but would be sadder if he strapped on a suicide vest and blew himself up in a crowd. That's the kind of risk assessment that ASIO need to make, because it only takes one fuckup, one oversight and 100s or even 1000s will die. |
Yep.
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Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| What was it like before an adverse security assessment from Asio
he or she don't care if he passed 1000 assessments and was on Santa's good list ASIO acquired information that I was a risk ? |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| Wokko wrote: | I don't want my nation's Spy agency to be run with transparency. You know that spies are there to do the worst things, quietly, to keep the nation and you safe. You don't want to know the kinds of things that do, or how they know what they know.
That article is very long and focuses almost entirely on the asylum seeker's story. I think it only needed this line.
"After an adverse security assessment from Asio"
I don't care if he passed 1000 assessments and was on Santa's good list, ASIO acquired information that he was a risk. It's sad for him, but would be sadder if he strapped on a suicide vest and blew himself up in a crowd. That's the kind of risk assessment that ASIO need to make, because it only takes one fuckup, one oversight and 100s or even 1000s will die. |
I'm guessing you'd be less enthusiastic about those maths if it happened to you. Think about it: one day you're going about your business, next thing you're dragged away never to see your family again as a free man. What if that happened to you, say, over a couple of Internet posts you made five years ago, or if you were in contact with some guy who turned out to be a white supremacist or something? No appeal, no reasons; ASIO know what they're doing. As Dutton's spokesperson says, your life would be ruined, and you wouldn't even get your day in court. Is that the kind of country you want to live in?
By the way, if you have so much faith in ASIO to make the right decisions, I'm surprised you're so against government surveillance. I don't see how you reconcile those views.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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A spy agency does what it has to, often outside or barely skirting legality. Things like an internet post from 5 years ago would only be an issue if I'd found myself on the radar for some reason. Government surveillance that I'm against is widespread, there is no reason to keep records on everyone for years at a time, but I have no problem with targetted, warranted (as in get a warrant) surveillance.
A Libertarian believes the job of government is to protect the freedoms of its people and that's about all. This is a case of them doing just that. You may not have noticed this, but we're at war with an evil ideology that wants to kill us and has tried to numerous times in your city. Let the spooks do their job, if an immigrant fails a security check then sorry you're in detention until it's safe to send you back. It's cold hearted rationality. |
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