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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| Pa Marmo wrote: | So many geniuses on this site, saying Christianity this and Christianity that, the majority of you wouldn't know Bible based Christianity if you fell over it.
The majority of the tripe spewed out by PTD and Tannin has nothing to do with Bible based Christianity, but refers to atrocities carried out by Catholicism and Anglicanism, neither of which is Bible based Christianity.
Bible based Christianity never hurt anyone ever, it prays for its enemies, turns the other cheek, gives from a pure heart, seeks to help, heal and comfort the lost. And before David jumps all over me referring to mum and dad, they aren't Christians either, they are in a cult. |
But they of course believe that their interpretation is "Bible-based Christianity", too. And you have no idea what you're talking about; if they're in a cult, it's the most benign one I've ever heard of (the Worldwide Church of God was certainly a dubious outfit, but it hasn't existed in any relevant form for 20 years, and my parents were only ever very loosely affiliated with them anyway). They'd probably be a little more charitable to you in acknowledging your religious faith (so long as you're not a Catholic, of course!). 
Of course, I have no wish to defend their particular brand of Christianity. Their mostly literal interpretation of the Old Testament would see us all living under something like a Taliban regime (but don't blame them, they didn't write it!). Your one true interpretation of the Bible may be a bit nicer, but it's hardly the most friendly one either given what you've said on here over the years. But that's all irrelevant: even the nicest, let's-hold-hands-and-sing interpretation of the Bible would look pretty ugly in a theocracy. Let's just be thankful we have separation of church and state here and hope for the same in all Muslim-majority countries in the years to come.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| David wrote: | | but don't blame them, they didn't write it |
And there you have the whole damn problem in a nutshell.
"I'm doing this horrendous act which is not justifiable in any rational or sensible way, but don't blame me, it's in the [some old book]. Who am I to contradict the word of [imaginary person I made up]?"
"I'm not a terrorist killing schoolchildren, I'm just a faithful follower of [imaginary person] doing my job. Don't blame me for all that death and suffering, it's in the book."
Justify anything, no matter how terrible, and duck all of the responsibility. It's not your fault, you were just following orders.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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Exactly. But what can you do but "just follow orders" when you believe that those orders are given by the all-seeing, all-knowing creator of the universe, and that not following those orders is going to land you in big trouble (Adam and Eve discovered this the hard way)?
My point is, nearly all of the horrible things that Christian and Muslim literalists believe are written down somewhere. You can either believe all of it, none of it, or invent some convoluted story about how God said all those terrible things then but they don't apply to us now so it's all okay. Although fundamentalists are right for calling them wishy-washy, decent religious people tend to choose that third option. Thank God for wishy-washiness, I say.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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That's a fair point, David.
The other point I'd make is that it's high time we stopped respecting stupid beliefs just because someone says they are in a highly slanted old book of myths somewhere. "Believe what you want" is a good motto, a worthy one, nevertheless it always needs the rider, "but if you insist on holding weird and stupid beliefs without evidence or reason, don't expect respect for that, expect to be regarded as what you are, a harmless fool". Or, in some cases, as a dangerous fool - and let us always remember that it is the peculiar, almost inexplicable tolerance we have for apparently harmless irrationalities which, when they are part of an overarching shared belief system, leads us down the slippery slope of accepting the most bizarre failures to think things through properly and make sound decisions and through that to tolerating the most dreadful things.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Tannin wrote: | That's a fair point, David.
The other point I'd make is that it's high time we stopped respecting stupid beliefs just because someone says they are in a highly slanted old book of myths somewhere. "Believe what you want" is a good motto, a worthy one, nevertheless it always needs the rider, "but if you insist on holding weird and stupid beliefs without evidence or reason, don't expect respect for that, expect to be regarded as what you are, a harmless fool". Or, in some cases, as a dangerous fool - and let us always remember that it is the peculiar, almost inexplicable tolerance we have for apparently harmless irrationalities which, when they are part of an overarching shared belief system, leads us down the slippery slope of accepting the most bizarre failures to think things through properly and make sound decisions and through that to tolerating the most dreadful things. |
I naturally feel like that, Tannin, but you'd go mental if you tried to to do that both with others, or yourself. A lot of nonsense is neither here nor there, as David says. Rather than overgeneralise the problem, I reckon it's healthier and saner to target known mischief with known mechanics, than the wrong but innocuous, as irritating as it is.
You do know that the inability to let things slide, which I think most of us share on here, is more than a little bit compulsive and reactionary. I wouldn't deny it in myself for a second.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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How about when murdering scum get to court, they are treated as what they are, murdering scum, no excuses, no 'higher power" clauses of any flavour, that includes murder, rape, animal abuse (bye bye kosher and halal) cutting off people's apendages, blowing up buildings etc etc
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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^ No argument from me there, TP. With you all the way on that, so long as we are talking genuine cases here, not borderline ones.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| pietillidie wrote: | | Tannin wrote: | That's a fair point, David.
The other point I'd make is that it's high time we stopped respecting stupid beliefs just because someone says they are in a highly slanted old book of myths somewhere. "Believe what you want" is a good motto, a worthy one, nevertheless it always needs the rider, "but if you insist on holding weird and stupid beliefs without evidence or reason, don't expect respect for that, expect to be regarded as what you are, a harmless fool". Or, in some cases, as a dangerous fool - and let us always remember that it is the peculiar, almost inexplicable tolerance we have for apparently harmless irrationalities which, when they are part of an overarching shared belief system, leads us down the slippery slope of accepting the most bizarre failures to think things through properly and make sound decisions and through that to tolerating the most dreadful things. |
I naturally feel like that, Tannin, but you'd go mental if you tried to to do that both with others, or yourself. A lot of nonsense is neither here nor there, as David says. |
Huh? You mean you'd go mental if you didn't do that, don't you? I'm all in favour of letting things slide and not worrying too much about the nonsense, but you can't possibly hold genuine respect for the mind of someone who consistently and knowingly uses made-up fairytales as an important part of his thinking. Of course, you can still like him and be friends with him, but it's obviously impossible to respect or put any trust in the thinking powers of a brain so deeply flawed.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Tannin wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | Tannin wrote: | That's a fair point, David.
The other point I'd make is that it's high time we stopped respecting stupid beliefs just because someone says they are in a highly slanted old book of myths somewhere. "Believe what you want" is a good motto, a worthy one, nevertheless it always needs the rider, "but if you insist on holding weird and stupid beliefs without evidence or reason, don't expect respect for that, expect to be regarded as what you are, a harmless fool". Or, in some cases, as a dangerous fool - and let us always remember that it is the peculiar, almost inexplicable tolerance we have for apparently harmless irrationalities which, when they are part of an overarching shared belief system, leads us down the slippery slope of accepting the most bizarre failures to think things through properly and make sound decisions and through that to tolerating the most dreadful things. |
I naturally feel like that, Tannin, but you'd go mental if you tried to to do that both with others, or yourself. A lot of nonsense is neither here nor there, as David says. |
Huh? You mean you'd go mental if you didn't do that, don't you? I'm all in favour of letting things slide and not worrying too much about the nonsense, but you can't possibly hold genuine respect for the mind of someone who consistently and knowingly uses made-up fairytales as an important part of his thinking. Of course, you can still like him and be friends with him, but it's obviously impossible to respect or put any trust in the thinking powers of a brain so deeply flawed. |
Damned if you do, damned if you don't!
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| think positive wrote: | | How about when murdering scum get to court, they are treated as what they are, murdering scum, no excuses, no 'higher power" clauses of any flavour, that includes murder, rape, animal abuse (bye bye kosher and halal) cutting off people's apendages, blowing up buildings etc etc |
Many vegans would agree with the bolded bit, so long as you're happy to see regular animal slaughter (and eating the meat that results from it) criminalised as well. Otherwise, some might say that you have double standards.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | How about when murdering scum get to court, they are treated as what they are, murdering scum, no excuses, no 'higher power" clauses of any flavour, that includes murder, rape, animal abuse (bye bye kosher and halal) cutting off people's apendages, blowing up buildings etc etc |
Many vegans would agree with the bolded bit, so long as you're happy to see regular animal slaughter (and eating the meat that results from it) criminalised as well. Otherwise, some might say that you have double standards. |
Only because there are not enough pfficials to police it and not mouth punishment dished out for abuse. The animal should be completely stunned and feel no pain. You can't align that with the barbaric halal crap
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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The trouble is, and this is something we've argued about before, you can't just selectively decide what is barbaric and what isn't. For me, there's not enough of a difference between Halal slaughter and regular animal treatment and slaughter here for you to condemn one as the work of "murdering scum" on the one hand and support one financially (and, from what I can tell, uncritically) on the other. You just can't have this both ways.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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Why not?
I find female circumcision barbaric.
But other cultures do not care about how barbaric it is.
Why am I wrong? |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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Because there is a massive difference between the cruel practice of female circumcision and any comparable non-essential surgery performed on children in Australia (and no, male circumcision is not even vaguely in the same category). I think we in the West can safely oppose female circumcision (which, you should know, the vast majority of Muslim countries don't practice) without being accused of hypocrisy.
Comparing slightly different ways of slaughtering livestock is a different matter. Modern Western factory farming, in which animals are by and large kept in terrible living conditions and pumped full of hormones before being dragged into an abattoir and killed, is only 'humane' if we're talking in very relative terms. Can you imagine a human being kept in such conditions, before being killed in such a way? You can surely only defend such a system if you don't care much for animal welfare.
Halal slaughter is exactly the same, except the final process—the method of killing—is slightly different. Perhaps slightly crueller (but still a long way from wanton cruelty; the death is still relatively quick). Now, I understand that if you're a radical vegan, you'd see all this stuff as horrific brutality and oppose all of it. But I don't see how you can rationally defend the first system to the extent of actually financially supporting the industry, and denounce the second as the work of 'murderous scum'.
This double standard is the reason that I and many others see the anti-Halal movement as barely-disguised anti-Islamic prejudice.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Pa Marmo
Side by Side
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Location: Nicks BB member #617
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| think positive wrote: | | Only because there are not enough pfficials to police it and not mouth punishment dished out for abuse. The animal should be completely stunned and feel no pain. You can't align that with the barbaric halal crap |
You do realize they smash it between the eyes with the equivalent of an electric sledgehammer, before turning over onto its back, then slitting its throat from ear to ear. There is no nice way to do this, doesn't matter from whose perspective you look at it, the animal still dies. And take it from someone who knows, if you think its more humane, let me take you for look see, and you will very quickly change your mind Jojo.
I'm against halal, but it has nothing to do with the method of killing, its all about the money extorted from business so they can further their hateful religion.
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Genesis 1:1 |
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