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jack_spain 
Joined: 03 May 2008
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| London Dave wrote: | | jack_spain wrote: | | Frankly there are too many people worrying about what is said about them. |
You're a fool Jack!!!! |
Annnnd loving it!  |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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jack_spain
Joined: 03 May 2008
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| Pi wrote: |
Ride the guilt train and indulge in self flagellation if you like, but you can not deny that slavery has existed and still exists in many parts of the world, it’s not about how far you go back or projecting worn out stereotypes. |
And let me just ad Pi (good post by the way), the African slave trade was made possible because a whole lot of black tribal leaders got rich and fat by trading their people to the European slave traders.
Nothing much has changed in that basket case of a continent. Look at how many tin pot dictators are stealing foreign aid money from their poor compatriots today.
Ah the white man's burden - responsible for everything from outback drunkeness to Rwandan genocide. 
I don't have any personal problem with Pietillidie's posts, and he does present himself in a fair manner (I can just imagine how Sheriffe would have tackled the issue ). The greater problem lies in the way our universities now present Pietillidie's perspective as the only (orthodox) truth.
Finding "racists" is our contemporary equivalent of the medievals looking for "witches". It makes everyone feel better and safer knowing that we have such diligent "priests" around to purify our horribly corrupt world of sinful ideas (i.e. that not all cultures are of equal value in the scheme of history). Try reading Roger Sandall's The Culture Cult. He's a renegade Australian anthropologist, but I doubt you'll find this book in your local university bookshop. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Pi wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: |
Ah, the cruel Asian and the barbaric Arab versus the righteous Westerner.
Unfortunately, in this case for every finger you point there are three pointing back at you. When exactly do you want to start the history of morality? Before the slave trade? Before dividing and conquering of Africa and the Middle East? Before the use of indentured Pacific Island labour in Queensland? Before the holocaust? Before Vietnam? Before Chile? Before Nestle started encouraging mothers from the developing world to swap breast milk for formula? Before supporting Saddam Hussein's invasion of Iran? Before the Union Carbide Bhopal disaster? Before James Hardie? Before Iraq?
This is an argument no one can win. |
Ah, the who’s worse than who pissing match. It’s not about winning arguments, just representing the facts.
A short concise history of slavery,
http://www.freetheslaves.net/Page.aspx?pid=303
The history of slavery is not just about the very well documented transatlantic slave trade to America. I’m happy to start at 6800 B.C. up until today, its all human history and everyone is invited.
A little but more up to date than your map.
http://www.freetheslaves.net/Page.aspx?pid=375
Saudi Arabia didn’t abolish slavery until 1962, get a load of what this guy said in 2003;
http://www.arabianews.org/english/article.cfm?qid=132&sid=2
Go ask the UN where slavery exists today.
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=29235&Cr=slave&Cr1=exploit
Ride the guilt train and indulge in self flagellation if you like, but you can not deny that slavery has existed and still exists in many parts of the world, it’s not about how far you go back or projecting worn out stereotypes. |
So you wrote all that to conclude what I concluded! Did you even read my post?
| pietillidie wrote: | | This is an argument no one can win. |
No one means no one on at all including either side of such an infantile debate. And I wrote that because you said:
| Pi wrote: | I didn’t have to wonder, I know there are countries in both the middle east and asia who are quite happy to use slave labour, in fact the slave trade is still flourishing in many of these countries. As they say slavery gets shit done!
Infringement of intellectual property and international patent laws, a few world beaters there too... |
In response to my claim that:
| pietillidie wrote: | | Have you ever wondered why Asian countries do so well in parts of Africa and the Middle East and have started winning so many big contracts in these places? It's because they don't have the same cultural discourses distorting their communication with Arabs and Muslims. |
In other words, not only are you trying to reduce the effectiveness of Asian-Arab trade to a matter of each party being morally bereft, claiming that unethical trade forms the defining feature of trade between these two groups, you are implying that Western companies would of course never be party to unethical trade. I then pointed out some home truths demonstrating the history of Western morality and trade - up until as recently as the Iraq War no less - to point out the hypocrisy.
As I said, it's the cruel Asian and barbaric Arab discourse in stark relief. |
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5150 
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
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| Cant beat it, cant beat it, cant beat that taste.... |
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Pi 
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA
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| pietillidie wrote: |
So you wrote all that to conclude what I concluded! Did you even read my post? |
I sure did read it, all 1300 odd words of it. And somehow I managed to say the same thing in one sentence with out being utterly tedious. 
| pietillidie wrote: |
In other words, not only are you trying to reduce the effectiveness of Asian-Arab trade to a matter of each party being morally bereft, claiming that unethical trade forms the defining feature of trade between these two groups, you are implying that Western companies would of course never be party to unethical trade. I then pointed out some home truths demonstrating the history of Western morality and trade - up until as recently as the Iraq War no less - to point out the hypocrisy.
As I said, it's the cruel Asian and barbaric Arab discourse in stark relief.
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Yep those cruel Arabs and barbaric Asians in stark relief selling produce made by slave labour to us bad white people.
Should I tell the UN that they are undermining Arab and Asian trade?
All this over an ad for Kentucky Fried Cat.
_________________
Pi = Infinite = Collingwood = Always
Floreat Pica
Last edited by Pi on Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| All? No I didn't read his or her post yet. Tell me about his or her post Can you remember any time that D [quotepietillidie]
In other words not you trying to reduce the effectiveness of Asian-Arab trade to a matter of each party being morally bereft claiming that unethical trade forms the defining feature of trade between these two groups you implying that Western companies would did it? What kind of people are you talking about? What do you think? I think there are a few exceptions. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Bruno wrote: | | Okay. So by posting this map your arguing that people who emigrated from Trinidad and Tobego to London in the 1950's are culturally no different to people currently living in Ghana because the people from Trinidad and Tobego can unltimately trace their ancestry back to Africa... just like today's Ghanains? Yah! |
No, that's not what I'm saying. That's your little word game.
Humans don't have single simplistic identities and don't need to be genetic and cultural clones to identify with each other. Do you think black people living in white countries or former white colonies haven't experienced enough white racism to identify with each other? Do you think only white people are aware of their common ancestry?
Obviously this argument does not require offense being taken equally by the entirety of a culturally identical black population of African ancestry to be valid. This is not about trivial word tricks. It is plainly obvious that black people of African ancestry from many different countries often identify with each other.
Make some international black friends and spend some time getting to know them and understanding their lives before demonstrating your gross ignorance.
Buffalo Soldier, Dreadlock Rasta:
There was a Buffalo Soldier in the heart of America,
Stolen from Africa, brought to America,
Fighting on arrival, fighting for survival..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbglT6fAyzA |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Pi wrote: | | All this over an ad for Kentucky Fried Cat. |
I have to agree with you on that. But these debates get a life of their own and then become an opportunity to work through issues in any case. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| jack_spain wrote: | | The greater problem lies in the way our universities now present Pietillidie's perspective as the only (orthodox) truth. |
I can understand that feeling. The departments you're referring to do fascinating and creative work, but they don't pay enough credence to science, meaning they don't constrain cultural relativity with physical constants or givens of any kind. I won't go that far. Physics, genetics, economics, etc. can't be ignored, which is why for example I won't buy into socialism. But in many cases the science either supports their view or increasingly looks like it will. Philosophy (in this case social theory) is always ahead of science, so we can't write off all apparently whacky ideas. |
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rocketronnie
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Location: Reservoir
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| jack_spain wrote: | | Pi wrote: |
Ride the guilt train and indulge in self flagellation if you like, but you can not deny that slavery has existed and still exists in many parts of the world, it’s not about how far you go back or projecting worn out stereotypes. |
And let me just ad Pi (good post by the way), the African slave trade was made possible because a whole lot of black tribal leaders got rich and fat by trading their people to the European slave traders.
Nothing much has changed in that basket case of a continent. Look at how many tin pot dictators are stealing foreign aid money from their poor compatriots today.
Ah the white man's burden - responsible for everything from outback drunkeness to Rwandan genocide.
I don't have any personal problem with Pietillidie's posts, and he does present himself in a fair manner (I can just imagine how Sheriffe would have tackled the issue ). The greater problem lies in the way our universities now present Pietillidie's perspective as the only (orthodox) truth.
Finding "racists" is our contemporary equivalent of the medievals looking for "witches". It makes everyone feel better and safer knowing that we have such diligent "priests" around to purify our horribly corrupt world of sinful ideas (i.e. that not all cultures are of equal value in the scheme of history). Try reading Roger Sandall's The Culture Cult. He's a renegade Australian anthropologist, but I doubt you'll find this book in your local university bookshop. |
Yep the slave trade was the Africans' fault...
He's a fool JCMP? Revise that up to Ignorant Cretin more like...
_________________
"Only the weak believe that what they do in battle is who they are as men" - Thomas Marshall - "Ironclad". |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| rocketronnie wrote: | Yep the slave trade was the Africans' fault...
He's a fool JCMP? Revise that up to Ignorant Cretin more like... |
An enormous part of the slave trade was with African chiefs selling their captured enemies mainly from the interior to slave traders in exchange for guns, alcohol, cloth, metal etc. So while "the Africans" aren't to blame for their own slavery it was coastal tribal rivals who largely brought them to the coast for trade to European slavers from the interior.
What seems largely ignored in this debate (rather tangent) is that more has been done by Western civilizations (England in particular) to end the slave trade than was ever done to perpetuate it. What we get taught of the slave trade in schools is so Eurocentric as to be almost worthless. It perpetuates the "Noble Savage" stereotype of simple and ethical triballists being exploited by evil Europeans. Pie's main point regarding the complexity of the issue cuts both ways and it cuts very deeply. Slavery is a human problem, not a white/asian/arab/african problem and it exists anywhere and anytime that people of low moral fiber can make money with free labour.
As for racial identities the victims of Africa/America slavery be they Caribbeans or African-Americans no doubt have a common identity to a degree as both can trace ethnic identity to a common point however culturally they as peoples are entirely seperate.
People who want to lump every dark skinned person in together and tip toe around any possible racial slight may as well lump Celts in with Slavs and ensure they never possibly offend ME (A Welsh Celt) by perpetuating Slavic racial sterotypes (whatever they may be). |
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Bruno
Joined: 19 Sep 2003
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pietillidie
You call me "ignorant", yet I am the one arguing that you can't throw a blanket over all people of colour and call them "the same".
Your the one throwing hundreds of cultures, nationalaties etc into the one basket and saying what affects one will affect the other... because they are all people of colour.
I never thought you'd align yourself with the Far Right like this.
The context in which you presented your map was totally ignorant too. Your basically suggesting that regardless of where in Africa the person left.... they are basically the same. You have shown no respect / understanding of the different cultures WITHIN Africa, let alone the different cultures which developed after people LEFT Africa over the course of 500 odd years.
You know, I actually don't even think YOU believe what you write in this thread. I think whats going on here is that believe you are conducting some sort of Socratic dialogue. You believe you are Socrates and the rest of us are mere Athenian youth! |
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rocketronnie
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Location: Reservoir
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| Wokko wrote: | | rocketronnie wrote: | Yep the slave trade was the Africans' fault...
He's a fool JCMP? Revise that up to Ignorant Cretin more like... |
An enormous part of the slave trade was with African chiefs selling their captured enemies mainly from the interior to slave traders in exchange for guns, alcohol, cloth, metal etc. So while "the Africans" aren't to blame for their own slavery it was coastal tribal rivals who largely brought them to the coast for trade to European slavers from the interior.
What seems largely ignored in this debate (rather tangent) is that more has been done by Western civilizations (England in particular) to end the slave trade than was ever done to perpetuate it. What we get taught of the slave trade in schools is so Eurocentric as to be almost worthless. It perpetuates the "Noble Savage" stereotype of simple and ethical triballists being exploited by evil Europeans. Pie's main point regarding the complexity of the issue cuts both ways and it cuts very deeply. Slavery is a human problem, not a white/asian/arab/african problem and it exists anywhere and anytime that people of low moral fiber can make money with free labour.
As for racial identities the victims of Africa/America slavery be they Caribbeans or African-Americans no doubt have a common identity to a degree as both can trace ethnic identity to a common point however culturally they as peoples are entirely seperate.
People who want to lump every dark skinned person in together and tip toe around any possible racial slight may as well lump Celts in with Slavs and ensure they never possibly offend ME (A Welsh Celt) by perpetuating Slavic racial sterotypes (whatever they may be). |
The slave trade in Africa was entirely circular, in a similar way to the sex trade is there now. Europeans create the demand for captured labour to develop their colonial economies, Africans and North Africans responded to the demand and filled it. The economic expansion made possible by an influx of captured labour led to further demand for more slaves to fuel further expansion, which led to expansions in the industry of slave capture and so it goes...
However all that is a tangent.
The real question is not whether the ad is offensive to those of African descent or not. Its the content of the ad and its effects on who its pitched at that is the issue. The ad contains several simplistic stereotypes as PieitillIdie has pointed out. Dealing in such stereotypes has been the stock in trade of the Australian advertising industry for years. They probably don't set out to offend any people of African descent but they do aim in to feed into the common stereotypes of 'the other' (in this case steel drum playing, happy, dancing, cricket loving, dredlocked West Indians) in our society in order to sell their product. Such depictions reinforce already existing views regarding other ethnic groups in this country. The real issue is how to challenge and overcoming those stereotypes and move towards a more sophisticated view of other ethnic groups in our society that is not based on the idea of 'the other'.
_________________
"Only the weak believe that what they do in battle is who they are as men" - Thomas Marshall - "Ironclad". |
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Bruno
Joined: 19 Sep 2003
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... and FWIW, if ever KFC DID stereotype people from the Carribean with chicken, it would be if KFC used the same ad but for a Jerk Chicken offering.
But this would be about as in-offensive as sterotyping South Africans by showing them eating Boerewors sausages or a Croatians eating Cevapcici.
Stereotyping doesn't always involve sneering you know. |
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