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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| David wrote: |
Lol no-one had a problem with statues of Saddam Hussein being toppled in Iraq or Lenin and Stalin in the Eastern Bloc after the fall of the USSR. So is the removal of statues is a universal harbinger of social collapse, or is it possible that ... these things are wholly dependent on cultural context?
I'll give her one thing (and this holds true for the examples I mentioned above, too): statues coming down everywhere often is a sign of radical cultural change. Sometimes it's good; sometimes it's bad. But for US BLM protesters, radical cultural change is obviously the point of what they're doing, and many of us wish them nothing but the best in achieving that. |
Pulling down the self erected statue of a brutal dictator isn't the same as tearing down or defacing every historical statue regardless of who or what they are, as long as it's a white guy. It's not some noble symbolism of freedom it's destruction of history and the warning is because it's straight out of the Communist revolutionary handbook and there's a very recent example of it and where it leads.
Getting pretty sick of the 'racist' snipes as well
https://www.facebook.com/ThePostMillennial/videos/3012534275509380/ |
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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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^ But that's a straw man, because nobody (to my knowledge) is advocating "tearing down or defacing every historical statue regardless of who or what they are, as long as it's a white guy". People are advocating doing that to statues of slave traffickers, confederate generals, KKK members, colonisers and, maybe, in some cases, people who more generally represented the oppressive power structures of their day. To many, these people are more or less morally equivalent to the brutal dictators you disapprove of, and in many cases they're right.
So it's not an act that's essentially communist or anticommunist in nature, and it's no more a destruction of history than the aforementioned knocking down of statues of dictators was. The dictators and everything they did are still in the history books, museums and so on. They're just no longer commemorated in public space. I think it's pretty clear that that's what this is about.
Frankly, I wish it were part of a Marxist uprising, but I think it's pretty clear that it's not. This anti-statue and broader BLM movement is, for all its virtues, still more ideologically wedded to superficial goals like greater diversity in boardrooms than it is to anything like the dismantling of capitalism. It's not an essentially socialist movement – more's the pity.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| It's explicitly a Marxist movement, they've said so themselves. Communists and Nazis need to be categorized the same, both disgusting, murderous ideologies that lead to suffering a death wherever they appear. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | You always get stupidity at the margins of any movement. For goodness’ sake, someone has defaced Stevie Ray Vaughn’s memorial in Texas. I can’t even begin to think why he would be a target. I expect he was just a statue in a park and got done as part of a “job lot”.
As for NASCAR, it seems to have just 1 black driver in the entire competition. It isn’t that long ago that black Americans didn’t get to play football or ice hockey. These under-representations are never because minorities don’t have the skills - they’re always because of systematic prejudice. |
since Nascar is really big in the southern & midwest states, ie redneck country, that could have something to do with it,
https://www.ranker.com/list/nascar-drivers-who-are-black/ranker-sports
https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2020/02/15/african-american-drivers-in-nascars-cup-series/
but as 1 person commented on the second link: "Most people see another great Nascar driver but thanks to pointing out of this story many people now see color .i could care less whether he white or black, i just see another man or woman in Nascar driver seat!"
i get that!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| Wokko wrote: | | It's explicitly a Marxist movement, they've said so themselves. Communists and Nazis need to be categorized the same, both disgusting, murderous ideologies that lead to suffering a death wherever they appear. |
Marxism /= communism /= Stalinism, but that's not the point here, because BLM (some socialist-friendly elements notwithstanding) is none of the above. This analysis from a conservative New York Times columnist is spot on:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/23/opinion/bernie-sanders-protesters-democrats.html
| Ross Douthat wrote: | The longer arc of the current revolutionary moment may actually end up vindicating the socialist critique of post-1970s liberalism — that it’s obsessed with cultural power at the expense of economic transformation, and that it puts the language of radicalism in the service of elitism.
The demand for police reform at the heart of the current protests doesn’t fit this caricature. But much of the action around it, the anti-racist reckoning unfolding in colleges, media organizations, corporations and public statuary, may seem more unifying than the Sanders revolution precisely because it isn’t as threatening to power.
The fact that corporations are “outdistancing” even politicians, as Crenshaw puts it, in paying fealty to anti-racism is perhaps the tell. It’s not that corporate America is suddenly deeply committed to racial equality; even for woke capital, the capitalism comes first. Rather, it’s that anti-racism as a cultural curriculum, a rhetoric of re-education, is relatively easy to fold into the mechanisms of managerialism, under the tutelage of the human resources department. The idea that you need to retrain your employees so that they can work together without microaggressing isn’t Marxism, cultural or otherwise; it’s just a novel form of Fordism, with white-fragility gurus in place of efficiency experts.
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The likely endgame of all this turbulence is the redistribution of elite jobs, the upward circulation of the more racially diverse younger generation, the abolition of perceived impediments to the management of elite diversity […] and the inculcation of a new elite language whose academic style will delineate the professional class more decisively from the unenlightened proles below. (With the possible long-run consequence that not only the white working class but also some minority voters will drift toward whatever remains of political conservatism once Trump is finished with it.) |
Ultimately, it wouldn't even matter if BLM were an explicitly and thoroughly Marxist movement, because recent history demonstrates that any economic demands will fall on deaf ears. What matters here is what actual impact they are having (and, more importantly, allowed to have), and at the end of the day it's all easy stuff (a statue removed by a city council; a show dropped from Netflix; a company press release promising to "do better") that doesn't threaten structures of power.
Basically, this is all a lot less like a revolution than it is a national rebranding exercise.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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David, that is quality posting of the highest order. There is a lot more to it than the sentence following, nevertheless, your conclusion tells it all.
| David wrote: | | Basically, this is all a lot less like a revolution than it is a national rebranding exercise. |
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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 The woman arrested for burning down an Atlanta Wendy’s as retribution for the police-killing of Rayshard Brooks was his “girlfriend,” her lawyer confirmed Tuesday.
Brooks referred to Natalie White, 29, as his “girlfriend” during the June 12 traffic stop that preceded his death, body cam footage shows.
White turned herself in Tuesday after a warrant was issued for her arrest.
“[White and Brooks] were close friends,” her attorney, Drew Findling, told The Post, confirming that she was the woman Brooks referred to in the body cam video.
Brooks is married to Tomika Miller.
Findling declined to comment further on Brooks’ relationship with White “out of respect to the Brooks family who had a funeral today and is grieving the loss of Rayshard Brooks.”
https://nypost.com/2020/06/23/accused-wendys-arsonist-natalie-white-was-rayshard-brooks-girlfriend-lawyer/
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| I don't really understand why you're referencing my post, there. Do you think it makes it better business if your fast food restaurant is burnt down by the victim's girlfriend? |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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^ *sigh* No it was because that was the post about it being burnt down that’s all.
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Hehe, blind Freddy can see that’s about the girlfriend/wife situation!
And wow, that’s gunna be messy!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Not messy at all, he's dead.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Not messy? Didn't you watch the video? |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Yep, and compared to managing a wife and girlfriend, not messy.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | | ..... compared to managing a wife and girlfriend, not messy. |
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Yep, and compared to managing a wife and girlfriend, not messy. |
Sounds exhausting - not that I’d know 
_________________
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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