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watt price tully ![Scorpio Scorpio](templates/subSilver/images/icon_mini_scorpio.gif)
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think positive wrote: | David wrote: | For karma’s sake, he should have to wear them in public for a year if Trump loses. ![Laughing](images/smiles/icon_lol.gif) |
i agree! he would anyway! when he wears them people have the weirdest reactions! he gets lots of hi 5s and hugs!! from men! |
I have an Obama Coffee Mug ![Wink](images/smiles/icon_wink.gif) _________________ “I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Tannin ![Capricorn Capricorn](templates/subSilver/images/icon_mini_capricorn.gif)
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David wrote: | Most of that was true for Bush if not worse (he was every bit as much a climate change denier and environmental wrecker |
That ridiculous claim is just horseshite write large. There is no comparison. Trump's environmental record makes Bush look like a Greenpeace radical. _________________ �Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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think positive ![Libra Libra](templates/subSilver/images/icon_mini_libra.gif)
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watt price tully wrote: | think positive wrote: | David wrote: | For karma’s sake, he should have to wear them in public for a year if Trump loses. ![Laughing](images/smiles/icon_lol.gif) |
i agree! he would anyway! when he wears them people have the weirdest reactions! he gets lots of hi 5s and hugs!! from men! |
I have an Obama Coffee Mug ![Wink](images/smiles/icon_wink.gif) |
loved Obama - but i have a Hilary t shirt!! I bought it outside the white house just before the election!! _________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David ![Libra Libra](templates/subSilver/images/icon_mini_libra.gif)
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pietillidie
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David wrote: | What if I told you that these Bush-era neocons are lining up behind Biden because they’re seeking to infiltrate his administration and push his (already questionable) foreign-policy orientation in the direction of intervention, mayhem and mass destruction? Would that move the needle on the concern meter? |
Why would I need you to tell me? I was about the loudest opponent of them getting around when Trump voters were giving them a second term.
As I say, deal with one set of psychopaths at a time. Trump's nutcase fist wavers have driven everyone batshit mad, destabilising the entire country, and dragging everyone to the right with them. That's the cost of a demagogue with a militia of fanatics; they poison the whole polity, so you're reduced to dealing with their wreckage before even starting.
You seem to think the Taliban actually care who funds them, and that Bush's backers and Trump's backers differ. Well, that's not only incredibly naive, but completely false. More lies from people who supported both with fanatical passion and have conned you into thinking this time it's different. The same fanatical liars who pretend to be libertarian but support handouts to the right grifters and communities. It's all and entirely about the mental case culture war in their heads. Fundamentalist wreckers don't give a toss where the funding comes from; they'll be pretending they never supported Cadet Bone Spurs soon enough.
Once that poison is removed from the system to some extent, then you can start judging positions on their merits. What are last year's far-right wreckers and favourites — the creepy Bushes and friends — trying to wreck this time? What is their self-serving mission now? Will a Joe Biden be less hawkish himself once the far right Taliban stop pressuring for world trade war? And so on.
But you actually have to survive the carnage of a collapsed global economy, the mismanagement of a deadly pandemic, unprecedented national instability of the superpower, and trade war insanity far deadlier in scope than the Middle East wreckage to be able to even get to those questions. _________________ In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
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pietillidie
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I would say Tannin will be able to find a list showing that Trump's environmental wreckage is worse. But again, it's the wrong question. Both have the very same fossil fuel and corrupt money backers. Bush and friends are just trying to save face by rehabilitating their public standing via the embarrassment of Trump (another Trump handout ti the elite, along with his dream tax cuts). But the point that matters is that the very same Civil War culture warriors fanatically supported both. Same shit, different colour.
The most dangerous thing yet to register is that Trump has conned the economically and historically illiterate into thinking suppressing the global economy isn't war because he doesn't like war. No, he would impoverish and kill people in a heartbeat to get what he wants — malignant narcissists act as psychopaths when needed, and in this case he needs to impoverish the world to artificially pay for his mismanagement. Do you think the rest of the world are going to sit idly by as Trump treats them like Iran, driving them into poverty? Of course it means war. Mega catastrophic war encompassing your economy. For now, it just means suffering in suppressed economies, including already poor suppressed economies. Mao, anyone?
I love the way Trump's weirdo away fans take a few percent off their GDP like it's a gift from Jesus himself; as if blessed to be part of the divine plan of global suppression to pay for elite tax cuts and gross mismanagement. In actual fact, it's a declaration of war because the psychopath is taxing the world like vassal states to fund his mismanagement. War. Nothing but war. Good old-fashioned war. Don't say you weren't warned. _________________ In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
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Last edited by pietillidie on Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:03 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Sicks Bux ![Sagittarius Sagittarius](templates/subSilver/images/icon_mini_sagittarius.gif)
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think positive wrote: | watt price tully wrote: | think positive wrote: | David wrote: | For karma’s sake, he should have to wear them in public for a year if Trump loses. ![Laughing](images/smiles/icon_lol.gif) |
i agree! he would anyway! when he wears them people have the weirdest reactions! he gets lots of hi 5s and hugs!! from men! |
I have an Obama Coffee Mug ![Wink](images/smiles/icon_wink.gif) |
loved Obama - but i have a Hilary t shirt!! I bought it outside the white house just before the election!! |
My son got a Bernie Sanders mug made for me at Kmart for my Birthday last year. It was a very thoughtful present. ![Very Happy](images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) _________________ The beatings will continue until moral improves. |
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David ![Libra Libra](templates/subSilver/images/icon_mini_libra.gif)
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pietillidie wrote: | As I say, deal with one set of psychopaths at a time […] Once that poison is removed from the system to some extent, then you can start judging positions on their merits. |
Why? Surely it's a simplistic approach to politics to imply that we need to hold back on criticising one side because the other side is worse, or resist acknowledging what we see in front of us. Maybe that's not what you're suggesting here – though plenty of others are – but if not, then, what? The world has many psychopaths with varying interests operating in different spheres. Condemning Trump doesn't mean we can't also condemn dangerous forces that exist parallel to him or oppose him, domestically or internationally. Because that kind of tunnel-vision, whether it manifests in domestic hyperpartisanship, or rah-rah America first, or the "anti-imperalism" that pushes some leftists into the arms of Putin and Assad, inevitably gets exploited and helps to perpetuate oppressive duopolies.
(I also understand the view that we – well, whoever "we" are – need to put all our efforts into vanquishing Trump by getting his opponent elected, and then and only then turn our critical attention to Biden. But I reject that, of course, not only because it feels cowardly and disingenuous, but because once he's in power with whatever administration he sets up around him, a great deal of criticism will be too little, too late.)
pietillidie wrote: | You seem to think the Taliban actually care who funds them, and that Bush's backers and Trump's backers differ. Well, that's not only incredibly naive, but completely false. More lies from people who supported both with fanatical passion and have conned you into thinking this time it's different. The same fanatical liars who pretend to be libertarian but support handouts to the right grifters and communities. It's all and entirely about the mental case culture war in their heads. Fundamentalist wreckers don't give a toss where the funding comes from; they'll be pretending they never supported Cadet Bone Spurs soon enough. |
Well, yes and no. Trump is clearly both Republican business-as-usual in many key ways – and, for that matter, America-as-usual – and different from Bush in many key respects. You don't have to be swindled by Trump's "drain the swamp" rhetoric and ignore his orthodox Republican policy on tax cuts and eviscerating social services to recognise that factions in the party that were in ascendancy 15–20 years ago are now out in the cold, and desperate to hitch their wagon onto anyone who will let them. Many astute observers have written reams on this, so I'm not going to try to write an essay on it; suffice it to say that Trump's election was a recalibration of sorts for his party and that not all the shifts were superficial – and that it's actually a facile reading to assert that nothing at all has changed. _________________ "Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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pietillidie
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^Criticise all you like, but don't forget actual leaders with actual responsibility by necessity have to prioritise and solve things in order. Without stability and general sanity, you have no ability to get anything done, so obviously you have to right the ship first - especially in the midst of global economic and international relations crisis, and domestic chaos. It's not management rocket science. You do understand the extent of the crisis, don't you? It's not an internet forum crisis; it's an actual crisis with more economies in recession than the Great Depression.
As a case in point, when's the last time you heard about the threat of global warming? Billions of dead Australian animals, incessant Californian fires, increased intense weather events, droughts causing people migrations, mass extinction of species accelerating out of hand, disease spread more likely, and not a peep. Why? Because there is even much greater and more pressing chaos to deal with right now caused by this scumbag and his enablers. It's going to take years to clear away his rubble to even get to climate change and the rubble it's causing at the same time. And you worry about internet trivia such as whether or not a journalist exaggerated the words of a contemptuous malignant narcissist who physically mocked a disabled journalist on global media the minute he stepped into the role.
Honestly, the facile reading is thinking you're looking at something different at any resolution worth bothering with. Reams of garbage written to save face by people trying to pretend that they're not the same whackos who use racism, nationalism, thuggery and batshit fundamentalism as the last lot. Trump has simply startled the old elite who worry about their reputations by exposing them for who they are because as a malignant narcissist he's entirely shameless and can't be bothered putting an acceptable veneer on standard GOP policy. He's no different in any substantive way except having no sense of shame; he's merely exposing what has always been there and arming the militia. Again, very same people, very same party, very same policies, very same harnessing of a dangerous and violent mob psychiatry.
Let's explore this for a moment. Just what is the difference between Trump and the GOP?
Tax policy? Nope. Social services policy? Nope. National debt? Nope. Global contempt? Nope? Environmental wreckage and protection wind back? Nope. Warmongering? Nope. Surrounded by grifters and criminals? Nope. Depriving people of decent healthcare? Nope. Supporting fundamentalist regimes with weapons to kill neighbours? Nope. Supporting the military-industrial complex by wrecking treaties and doling out weapons? Nope. Insufficient regulations controlling banks? Nope. Wrecking global arrangements they can't control? Nope. Nepotists extending their family reach? Nope. Triggering financial crises through mismanagement? Nope. Corrupt unqualified loyalists in serious government positions? Nope. Whipping up hysteria against a new world enemy? Nope. Lying incessantly? Nope. Fuelling shock jock hysteria to keep people embroiled in rage? Nope. Handing out corrupt contracts? Nope. Wasting money on vanity projects while people live in squalor? Nope. Pretending to be free market but protecting the economy when it suits? Nope. Promising to improve their own voters' lives only to wreck them further? Nope. Under-staffing departments for ideological reasons? Nope. Mental gun-wielding and gun-waving fanaticism? Nope. Anti-scientific idiocy? Nope. Batshit mental policies to deny young women control of their lives? Nope. Glorying in market highs over the real state of people's lives and wellbeing? Nope. Driving students into deeper debt to punish them for trying to rise above their station? Nope. Fossil fuels handouts? Nope. Gross and contemptuous mismanagement of crisis causing people to die? Nope. Contempt for indigenous, black and minority people? Nope. Treating impoverished Central Americans as sub-humans? Nope.
As explained, there are two differences, and both are cosmetic, which makes perfect sense when dealing with a cheap showman who has mastered the art of the con:
One, Trump and thugs are using economic warfare rather than bombing or invading countries. Do you think the poor those developing nations who have lost three percent off their GDP before Trump's Covid-19 disaster were laughing? Do you think they're laughing now at the extra few percent taken off their GDP due to the halfwit mismanaging the superpower's response to the pandemic?
Let's be very clear, Trump would hand off killing people to pyschopath Pompeo in a second - except that Bush was such a disaster he ruined the PR of invading other countries for a while, and Trump has to pretend he is different (don't tell me you think a world-record liar and conman, and malignant narcissist who will stop at nothing when necessary, actually gives a toss whether people live or are lynched in Central Park for a crime they didn't commit?).
Instead, Trump has been forced to trigger a world trade war, i.e., a world war on time delay, punishing the global poor and yourself through global economic suppression. It's a bonus for him that this move also bamboozles people who have heard of WW2 but nothing that preceded it, so they won't realise they're creating fascism and collapsing world economies at the very same time.
Trump always goes for the weakest with a vicious and deranged callousness - you ought to know that about his psychiatry by now. All that global economic suffering at his hand just to give fist-waving wreckers a ruse so they can pretend he's actually doing something fundamentally different from those before him because he hasn't invaded a country yet. How dumb can people be? Do they think malignant narcissists aren't cunning manipulators who will seize any opportunity to misdirect them?
No, as I say, he's just doing to the world what he's doing to Iran because Bush and the very people who now support Trump ruined blowing shit up directly for a bit.
Two, given Trump has no face to protect, he's open about being a vile, corrupt, malignant piece of dog faeces. This has emboldened the deranged Taliban and Khmer Rouge Hats he represents, making them even more dangerous to fellow citizens. It's as if you feel sorry for him for being Bush and Cheney without mates, because that's all he is. Poor little Donald is not not really a textbook malignant narcissist; just misunderstood.
So no, the only facile analysis getting around are the desperate con pieces being penned to distract people from recognising it's the same old party with the same old fist-waving fanatics in tow, led by another elite GOP piece of shite with precisely the same policies backed by precisely the same money. As I say, same dog faeces, different colour.
Oh, but the hats! They wear red hats! _________________ In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
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David ![Libra Libra](templates/subSilver/images/icon_mini_libra.gif)
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pietillidie wrote: | You do understand the extent of the crisis, don't you? It's not an internet forum crisis; it's an actual crisis with more economies in recession than the Great Depression. |
Of course. But what you're painting as a Trump-specific crisis is bigger than him and factors in many other considerations, including the US' decline as a superpower and incapacity to take basic steps to fix its own deeply broken society and destructive interactions with other nation states. It's precisely because I'm aware of the extent of the crisis that I'm so gloomy about the prospect of what might come next.
pietillidie wrote: | And you worry about internet trivia such as whether or not a journalist exaggerated the words of a contemptuous malignant narcissist who physically mocked a disabled journalist on global media the minute he stepped into the role. |
As I thought I made it clear, I'm not worried about this one bit. I honestly don't care whether he said it or whether Goldberg's source made it up, and it wouldn't change my opinion of him (or them) one bit either way. Let's not imbue internet forum musings with world-altering capacity, please.
pietillidie wrote: | It's as if you feel sorry for him for being Bush and Cheney without mates, because that's all he is. Poor little Donald is not not really a textbook malignant narcissist; just misunderstood. |
I don't know how you got that impression, but, to be clear, I don't. I have nothing but contempt for the Trump administration and not the slightest bit of sympathy for those who populate that kakistocracy.
pietillidie wrote: | Reams of garbage written to save face by people trying to pretend that they're not the same whackos who use racism, nationalism, thuggery and batshit fundamentalism as the last lot.
[…]
So no, the only facile analysis getting around are the desperate con pieces being penned to distract people from recognising it's the same old party with the same old fist-waving fanatics in tow, led by another elite GOP piece of shite with precisely the same policies backed by precisely the same money. As I say, same dog faeces, different colour.
Oh, but the hats! They wear red hats! |
Why on earth would you think that I was referring to Trump/GOP apologists here? I'm obviously referring to careful analysis from across the political spectrum, primarily from the left as well as from sources you'd respect. Ever since 2016, a great many people have been trying to get a grip on precisely why Trump won and what he represents, and come up with interesting conclusions that amount to more than just "George W with a spray tan and bad hair". So its your sudden refusal to countenance that nuance that I find curious.
pietillidie wrote: | Trump has simply startled the old elite who worry about their reputations by exposing them for who they are because as a malignant narcissist he's entirely shameless and can't be bothered putting an acceptable veneer on standard GOP policy. He's no different in any substantive way except having no sense of shame; he's merely exposing what has always been there and arming the militia. Again, very same people, very same party, very same policies, very same harnessing of a dangerous and violent mob psychiatry. |
Here we mostly agree – which raises the question, just why exactly is getting rid of Trump the be all and end all when we're faced with the prospects such as a weak stop-gap Biden presidency holding the fort for four years before the next Republican wreckers come in and/or a Biden presidency influenced by the very same people you describe above: people who basically support the same destructive agenda but just wish Trump were a bit more civil, or less transparent and blundering?
pietillidie wrote: | One, Trump and thugs are using economic warfare rather than bombing or invading countries. Do you think the poor those developing nations who have lost three percent off their GDP before Trump's Covid-19 disaster were laughing? Do you think they're laughing now at the extra few percent taken off their GDP due to the halfwit mismanaging the superpower's response to the pandemic?
Let's be very clear, Trump would hand off killing people to pyschopath Pompeo in a second - except that Bush was such a disaster he ruined the PR of invading other countries for a while, and Trump has to pretend he is different (don't tell me you think a world-record liar and conman, and malignant narcissist who will stop at nothing when necessary, actually gives a toss whether people live or are lynched in Central Park for a crime they didn't commit?).
Instead, Trump has been forced to trigger a world trade war, i.e., a world war on time delay, punishing the global poor and yourself through global economic suppression. It's a bonus for him that this move also bamboozles people who have heard of WW2 but nothing that preceded it, so they won't realise they're creating fascism and collapsing world economies at the very same time.
[...]
No, as I say, he's just doing to the world what he's doing to Iran because Bush and the very people who now support Trump ruined blowing shit up directly for a bit. |
I'm sorry, but I simply don't accept that the difference between trade war and military invasion is so trivial, and I write that in full acceptance that the former is every bit as dangerous as you say. We're talking about long-term economic and diplomatic destabilisation here – destabilisation that can be repaired – not wanton destruction. It's like comparing the Cold War with Vietnam; yes, the former made the world a tinderbox and fostered conflicts like the latter, but ask a Vietnamese peasant whether they would have preferred another round of US/Soviet sabre-rattling or napalm. And, incidentally, even the most flagrant tariffs and trade bans at their most irresponsible have nothing on the suffering caused by the preferred Biden–Democrat method of hegemonic expression, sanctions (half the tragedy of Iraq, of course, was the brutal starvation and impoverishment visited upon it by Clinton), which Trump has also levied against various countries with mostly bipartisan support. So the instinct to invade – something that even you begrudgingly admit Trump seems to lack – is no small thing, and I simply don't accept that it's not notably different from what is happening right now. _________________ "Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
Last edited by David on Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Sicks Bux ![Sagittarius Sagittarius](templates/subSilver/images/icon_mini_sagittarius.gif)
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If only the Democrats went with Sanders. They'd have a candidate who could attack Trump on medicare for all, which 87% of Democrats support. and the outsourcing of jobs. Biden is in no position to do that , so they have to engage in the culture war BS which I feel plays into the hands of the GOP. _________________ The beatings will continue until moral improves. |
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stui magpie ![Gemini Gemini](templates/subSilver/images/icon_mini_gemini.gif)
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Sicks Bux wrote: | If only the Democrats went with Sanders. They'd have a candidate who could attack Trump on medicare for all, which 87% of Democrats support. and the outsourcing of jobs. Biden is in no position to do that , so they have to engage in the culture war BS which I feel plays into the hands of the GOP. |
I was in the US in June 2016, went through El Paso, Vegas, Frisco and LA. You get to strike up conversations as you go around, bartenders, strippers, cab drivers, people having a smoke etc.
The large majority I spoke to then thought Medicare for all was socialist and didn't want a bar of it.
We look from the outside at their system and compare it negatively to ours, and rightly so IMO. But for a lot of them, that's what they've grown up with, it's what they understand.
You say 87% of democrats support it.
Quote: | As of May 2020, Gallup polling found that 31% of Americans identified as Democrats, 25% identified as Republican, and 40% as Independent | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_party_strength_in_U.S._states
87% of 31% says, at worse, only 26% of Americans support it.
Their whole health system is completely different to ours and the UK.
That stat also goes a way to debunking the binary Republican v Democrat scenario. Fact is, the number of people who call themselves independant rather than affiliate themselves with either party has steadily increased over time.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/15370/party-affiliation.aspx
So it's pretty clear. If you rely on your base to win an election you likely won't. You need to get more of the independents than your opponent. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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pietillidie
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David wrote: | I'm sorry, but I simply don't accept that the difference between trade war and military invasion is so trivial, and I write that in full acceptance that the former is every bit as dangerous as you say. We're talking about long-term economic and diplomatic destabilisation here – destabilisation that can be repaired – not wanton destruction. It's like comparing the Cold War with Vietnam; yes, the former made the world a tinderbox and fostered conflicts like the latter, but ask a Vietnamese peasant whether they would have preferred another round of US/Soviet sabre-rattling or napalm. |
Simply saying 'it's like comparing the Cold War with Vietnam' shows you have no idea about either. The mass death and destruction in Indochina and Latin America were central elements of the Cold War! Yes, each case was multi-faceted, but every single intervention was funded by US politicians and their voters as part of the Cold War. That's why it's a racist joke that it's called 'cold'.
I am better to hand you over to Tannin for the war history, but there are three things you're gravely mistaken about here which have distorted your reasoning and conclusion:
1. Too much WW2 and not enough WW1 work, to misquote Jake the Muss. This is why you don't have a sense of urgency over Trump's global trade war. As I say, it is war alright, just on time delay. Go read anything about WW1 and the lead-up to WW2. I don't rate analogies myself, but at least the analogy can put the possibility into your head and make you look under different lamp posts. Start looking at the economic numbers and tell me something's not going to give, and soon if this keeps up.
2. You somehow actually think the Cold War was 'cold', swallowing the propaganda in full. Chomsky would turn in his grave if he were already dead like most 90-year olds You've falling for one of the worst misdirections in American history, yet somehow you're sure you've astutely avoided the misdirection of a malignant narcissist and well-honed serial conman who insists he's 'different'.
3. You make the inexplicable assumption that economic suppression doesn't directly result in death through massive cuts to healthcare and social services. We are talking developing economies Trump is suppressing here, so just watch all the classics from infant mortality to communicable disease control. Do you think losing a leg to an IED is worse than brain damage caused by malnourishment? Or that dying in child birth is superior to being shot? Trump's economic suppression is a direct and typically callous hand on the executioner's switch for the poorest in developing countries and BRICS economies who, after decades of crawling through the mire to set up their economies have finally start seeing a glimmer of hope, only to have a psychopathic creep unilaterally snuff that hope out to pay for his wreckage and con gullible fools into thinking he's different from the last lot of killers.
What a vile piece of shite - and he's got you conned cold, like the supposed 'Cold' War you so prefer. _________________ In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Sicks Bux ![Sagittarius Sagittarius](templates/subSilver/images/icon_mini_sagittarius.gif)
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stui magpie wrote: | Sicks Bux wrote: | If only the Democrats went with Sanders. They'd have a candidate who could attack Trump on medicare for all, which 87% of Democrats support. and the outsourcing of jobs. Biden is in no position to do that , so they have to engage in the culture war BS which I feel plays into the hands of the GOP. |
I was in the US in June 2016, went through El Paso, Vegas, Frisco and LA. You get to strike up conversations as you go around, bartenders, strippers, cab drivers, people having a smoke etc.
The large majority I spoke to then thought Medicare for all was socialist and didn't want a bar of it.
We look from the outside at their system and compare it negatively to ours, and rightly so IMO. But for a lot of them, that's what they've grown up with, it's what they understand.
You say 87% of democrats support it.
Quote: | As of May 2020, Gallup polling found that 31% of Americans identified as Democrats, 25% identified as Republican, and 40% as Independent | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_party_strength_in_U.S._states
87% of 31% says, at worse, only 26% of Americans support it.
Their whole health system is completely different to ours and the UK.
That stat also goes a way to debunking the binary Republican v Democrat scenario. Fact is, the number of people who call themselves independant rather than affiliate themselves with either party has steadily increased over time.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/15370/party-affiliation.aspx
So it's pretty clear. If you rely on your base to win an election you likely won't. You need to get more of the independents than your opponent. |
I'm pretty sure medicare for all has over 50% across the board support _________________ The beatings will continue until moral improves. |
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stui magpie ![Gemini Gemini](templates/subSilver/images/icon_mini_gemini.gif)
![](images/transdot.gif) Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
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