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London Dave 
Ješte jedna pivo prosím
Joined: 16 Dec 1998
Location: Iceland on Thames
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| ^ it's the Vodka of Sweden!! How dopey are you? |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^^^
LOL  
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Bruno
Joined: 19 Sep 2003
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Don't be rude London Dave.
Your missing my point again.....
The people in the Vodka (the brand of Vodka is irrelevant) ad are WHITE. Applying pietillidie's logic, skin colour is what defines a person (i.e. given they argue showing black people from Kingston, Jamaica eating fried chicken is racist because it is offensive to black people in Greensboro, North Carolina) In other words, it doesn't matter if a person is from Atlanta, Georgia / Paris, France / London, England / Lagos, Nigeria / Melbourne, Australia or Accra, Ghana.... if you are black, you are all the same.
Applying tha that same logic to WHITE people .... "It doesn't matter whether you are from Moscow, Russia / Stockholm, Sweden / Greensboro, North Carolina / Lagos, Nigeria / Melbourne, Australia or Accra, Ghana.... if you are white, you are all the same".
Now, combing the Vodka ad with the rather flawed theory that skin colour defines everything about a persons background.... the people in the Vodka ad are white. Therefore that vodka company is being racist, just like KFC, because their ad can be taken as a social commentary on Russian people who are also white, drinking to excess.... even if the people in the ad are specifically NOT Russian (just like the Carribean people are specifically not from the US South). All that matters is that they are WHITE and a section of the white population (the Russian ones) drink Vodka to excess.
That not to hard to follow surely.
I am just applying pietillidies logic to a white situation to illustrate how tenuous the argument that the KFC ad is racist is. |
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London Dave
Ješte jedna pivo prosím
Joined: 16 Dec 1998
Location: Iceland on Thames
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| Bruno wrote: | | Your missing my point again..... |
No, i think you're missing mine. Using a Swedish vodka as an 'example' of stereotyping Russians is, how does one say, the opposite of stereotypical. Unless perhaps it's mixed to make a Black Russian! |
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rocketronnie
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Location: Reservoir
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| Bruno wrote: | Don't be rude London Dave.
Your missing my point again.....
The people in the Vodka (the brand of Vodka is irrelevant) ad are WHITE. Applying pietillidie's logic, skin colour is what defines a person (i.e. given they argue showing black people from Kingston, Jamaica eating fried chicken is racist because it is offensive to black people in Greensboro, North Carolina) In other words, it doesn't matter if a person is from Atlanta, Georgia / Paris, France / London, England / Lagos, Nigeria / Melbourne, Australia or Accra, Ghana.... if you are black, you are all the same.
Applying tha that same logic to WHITE people .... "It doesn't matter whether you are from Moscow, Russia / Stockholm, Sweden / Greensboro, North Carolina / Lagos, Nigeria / Melbourne, Australia or Accra, Ghana.... if you are white, you are all the same".
Now, combing the Vodka ad with the rather flawed theory that skin colour defines everything about a persons background.... the people in the Vodka ad are white. Therefore that vodka company is being racist, just like KFC, because their ad can be taken as a social commentary on Russian people who are also white, drinking to excess.... even if the people in the ad are specifically NOT Russian (just like the Carribean people are specifically not from the US South). All that matters is that they are WHITE and a section of the white population (the Russian ones) drink Vodka to excess.
That not to hard to follow surely.
I am just applying pietillidies logic to a white situation to illustrate how tenuous the argument that the KFC ad is racist is. |
Ummm biting my tongue... show self control RR, show self control...
I) As pointed its an ad for Swedish vodka - No Russians portrayed anywhere in the ad.
2) No-one in the ad is even remotely acting in a demeaning stereotypical way. For your logic to have even the remotest validity someone would have to be conforming to some stereotype within the the set of our cultural beliefs - the problems for you is that no-one is acting in such a way in that ad. No-one is stumbling drunk, being voluable, over-excited, dancing with their arms crossed or any other recognisable Russian stereotype in that ad.
3) Stereotypes in advertising are not defined by skin colour. They are defined by culturally recognisable stereotypical behaviour (which is what people find offensive). There is none of that in that ad.
4) Your attempt at syllogistic logic is incompetent. You arbitarily choose them to be Russian, but given the ad is Swedish that is not a necessary assumption. They equally could be Swedish, Finnish, Californian. There is nothing in the ad to label them Russian. Your premises dont lead to your ridiculous conclusions.
5) Bites tongue again... restraint, restraint, restraint.....
_________________
"Only the weak believe that what they do in battle is who they are as men" - Thomas Marshall - "Ironclad". |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Bruno wrote: | Don't be rude London Dave.
Your missing my point again.....
The people in the Vodka (the brand of Vodka is irrelevant) ad are WHITE. Applying pietillidie's logic, skin colour is what defines a person (i.e. given they argue showing black people from Kingston, Jamaica eating fried chicken is racist because it is offensive to black people in Greensboro, North Carolina) In other words, it doesn't matter if a person is from Atlanta, Georgia / Paris, France / London, England / Lagos, Nigeria / Melbourne, Australia or Accra, Ghana.... if you are black, you are all the same.
Applying tha that same logic to WHITE people .... "It doesn't matter whether you are from Moscow, Russia / Stockholm, Sweden / Greensboro, North Carolina / Lagos, Nigeria / Melbourne, Australia or Accra, Ghana.... if you are white, you are all the same".
Now, combing the Vodka ad with the rather flawed theory that skin colour defines everything about a persons background.... the people in the Vodka ad are white. Therefore that vodka company is being racist, just like KFC, because their ad can be taken as a social commentary on Russian people who are also white, drinking to excess.... even if the people in the ad are specifically NOT Russian (just like the Carribean people are specifically not from the US South). All that matters is that they are WHITE and a section of the white population (the Russian ones) drink Vodka to excess.
That not to hard to follow surely.
I am just applying pietillidies logic to a white situation to illustrate how tenuous the argument that the KFC ad is racist is. |
No, you're not applying my logic to anything because you've fundamentally misunderstood what I'm saying. You're wheeling out the conservative deception machine as a substitute for honest engagement again.
The sad thing is, you still think I'm talking about colour rather than about discourse, relationships and human experience, despite the extensive conversation on the matter which you refuse to engage at any depth whatsoever. New ideas are frightening, I understand, but at least have a go at them.
One more time with feeling.
Shared identity is rooted in empathy, which itself is rooted in experience and the capacity for understanding others courtesy of our cognitive biology. People who have been sexually abused, for example, often feel great kinship with each other based on their shared experience. Recovering alcoholics, born-again Christians, neuro surgeons, Pies fans, Mac users, and most other social groups you can think of are drawn together on the basis of shared experience. And under conditions of globalisation it doesn't matter where they live, either.
How hard is it to accept that people of African ancestry whose forebears survived colonialism, the slave trade, slavery, segregation and discrimination, and who inherited the legacy thereof, often feel a kinship despite having different passports? And it's not just those of African ancestry. Have you ever listened to Indians and Africans discuss their shared experiences under colonialism? North Africans, Middle Easterners and Southeast Asians discuss their modern histories? Have you ever read any postcolonial literature? Interviews with minorities? Read studies on racial identity?
I would love to watch you tell my African, African American, Central American and Indian friends that their offense at the ad was either fraudulent or racist because they're not West Indian and have no right to identify with West Indians. That would be amusing. Bruno, the arbiter of identification! You get out there Bruno and tell those Aboriginal kids and Indonesians and Africans and marginalised black peoples who look up to Barack Obama that they're racist for identifying with him because he's black. I guess if the colonialists could draw arbitrary boundaries across Africa then you're allowed to arbitrarily declare who can and cannot identify with each other. Great little word game you've got going; it's not the marginalization, violence and discrimination that brings people together on this issue, it's the fact that they are obsessed with colour. If only they were as colour blind as you this problem wouldn't exist! What a sinister dismissal of the history, facts and argument that little sleight of hand is.
Further to your refusal to deal with the arguments put forward, your misrepresentation of my view, namely the false claim that my argument implies that skin colour is the basis of identity, has nothing to do with what I've been saying. It is obvious that people maintain complex multi-faceted identities; this is one of the main cognitive abilities we have which facilitates communication and cooperation. Identification is extremely malleable and people identify with each other in multiple ways for all manner of reasons, from the everyday (say tattoos) to the weighty (say being a victim of sexual abuse). It is precisely because of this capacity and need for identification that this ad is under discussion. Identification facilitates both racism and shared offence. That racism and offence then becomes encoded in arrangements of symbols and simplified story lines. Some stories bring people together, other stories marginalise people, and still other stories incite violence. That's what happens when you're a specie with a system of empathy and identification (namely the mirror neuron system).
Personally, I don't know what the attraction to defending yesterday is. |
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jack_spain 
Joined: 03 May 2008
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| rocketronnie wrote: |
Ummm biting my tongue... show self control RR, show self control...
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LOL and double LOL.  |
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rocketronnie
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Location: Reservoir
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| pietillidie wrote: | | Bruno wrote: | Don't be rude London Dave.
Your missing my point again.....
The people in the Vodka (the brand of Vodka is irrelevant) ad are WHITE. Applying pietillidie's logic, skin colour is what defines a person (i.e. given they argue showing black people from Kingston, Jamaica eating fried chicken is racist because it is offensive to black people in Greensboro, North Carolina) In other words, it doesn't matter if a person is from Atlanta, Georgia / Paris, France / London, England / Lagos, Nigeria / Melbourne, Australia or Accra, Ghana.... if you are black, you are all the same.
Applying tha that same logic to WHITE people .... "It doesn't matter whether you are from Moscow, Russia / Stockholm, Sweden / Greensboro, North Carolina / Lagos, Nigeria / Melbourne, Australia or Accra, Ghana.... if you are white, you are all the same".
Now, combing the Vodka ad with the rather flawed theory that skin colour defines everything about a persons background.... the people in the Vodka ad are white. Therefore that vodka company is being racist, just like KFC, because their ad can be taken as a social commentary on Russian people who are also white, drinking to excess.... even if the people in the ad are specifically NOT Russian (just like the Carribean people are specifically not from the US South). All that matters is that they are WHITE and a section of the white population (the Russian ones) drink Vodka to excess.
That not to hard to follow surely.
I am just applying pietillidies logic to a white situation to illustrate how tenuous the argument that the KFC ad is racist is. |
No, you're not applying my logic to anything because you've fundamentally misunderstood what I'm saying. You're wheeling out the conservative deception machine as a substitute for honest engagement again.
The sad thing is, you still think I'm talking about colour rather than about discourse, relationships and human experience, despite the extensive conversation on the matter which you refuse to engage at any depth whatsoever. New ideas are frightening, I understand, but at least have a go at them.
One more time with feeling.
Shared identity is rooted in empathy, which itself is rooted in experience and the capacity for understanding others courtesy of our cognitive biology. People who have been sexually abused, for example, often feel great kinship with each other based on their shared experience. Recovering alcoholics, born-again Christians, neuro surgeons, Pies fans, Mac users, and most other social groups you can think of are drawn together on the basis of shared experience. And under conditions of globalisation it doesn't matter where they live, either.
How hard is it to accept that people of African ancestry whose forebears survived colonialism, the slave trade, slavery, segregation and discrimination, and who inherited the legacy thereof, often feel a kinship despite having different passports? And it's not just those of African ancestry. Have you ever listened to Indians and Africans discuss their shared experiences under colonialism? North Africans, Middle Easterners and Southeast Asians discuss their modern histories? Have you ever read any postcolonial literature? Interviews with minorities? Read studies on racial identity?
I would love to watch you tell my African, African American, Central American and Indian friends that their offense at the ad was either fraudulent or racist because they're not West Indian and have no right to identify with West Indians. That would be amusing. Bruno, the arbiter of identification! You get out there Bruno and tell those Aboriginal kids and Indonesians and Africans and marginalised black peoples who look up to Barack Obama that they're racist for identifying with him because he's black. I guess if the colonialists could draw arbitrary boundaries across Africa then you're allowed to arbitrarily declare who can and cannot identify with each other. Great little word game you've got going; it's not the marginalization, violence and discrimination that brings people together on this issue, it's the fact that they are obsessed with colour. If only they were as colour blind as you this problem wouldn't exist! What a sinister dismissal of the history, facts and argument that little sleight of hand is.
Further to your refusal to deal with the arguments put forward, your misrepresentation of my view, namely the false claim that my argument implies that skin colour is the basis of identity, has nothing to do with what I've been saying. It is obvious that people maintain complex multi-faceted identities; this is one of the main cognitive abilities we have which facilitates communication and cooperation. Identification is extremely malleable and people identify with each other in multiple ways for all manner of reasons, from the everyday (say tattoos) to the weighty (say being a victim of sexual abuse). It is precisely because of this capacity and need for identification that this ad is under discussion. Identification facilitates both racism and shared offence. That racism and offence then becomes encoded in arrangements of symbols and simplified story lines. Some stories bring people together, other stories marginalise people, and still other stories incite violence. That's what happens when you're a specie with a system of empathy and identification (namely the mirror neuron system).
Personally, I don't know what the attraction to defending yesterday is. |
Nice, well argued post. 
_________________
"Only the weak believe that what they do in battle is who they are as men" - Thomas Marshall - "Ironclad". |
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rocketronnie
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Location: Reservoir
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| jack_spain wrote: | | rocketronnie wrote: |
Ummm biting my tongue... show self control RR, show self control...
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LOL and double LOL. |
Its my new caring and sharing style! I promise not to use terms like "facile idiot" when I post from now on.
_________________
"Only the weak believe that what they do in battle is who they are as men" - Thomas Marshall - "Ironclad".
Last edited by rocketronnie on Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Oops. Too much data. |
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rocketronnie
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Location: Reservoir
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| HAL wrote: | | Oops. Too much data. |
You can never have too many shoes, hats, accessories, or data Hal.
_________________
"Only the weak believe that what they do in battle is who they are as men" - Thomas Marshall - "Ironclad". |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Can you remember any time that [quote]
You can did it? |
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Kingswood
//
Joined: 05 May 2007
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damn, they come back hard
applauds RR & pietillidie
to be fair bruno just served up one of the easiest lobs |
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JacJacJacqui 
Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Location: B-town represent
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LOL... Americans are so amusing..
_________________
Pirate skulls and bones
Sticks and stones and weed and bombs
Running when we hit 'em
Lethal poison through their system |
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