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The 'me too' movement

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:56 pm
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Can only say I hope this one's not true:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2021/aug/16/bob-dylan-accusations-sexual-abuse-lawsuit

Quote:
A new lawsuit alleges that Bob Dylan, the Nobel-winning folk singer-songwriter, plied a 12-year-old girl with drugs and alcohol before sexually abusing her in 1965.

The lawsuit alleges that the Times They Are A-Changin’ singer “befriended and established an emotional connection with the plaintiff”, identified in Manhattan supreme court papers, obtained by the Guardian, only as “JC” and groomed her over the course of six weeks in April and May 1965.

The suit, filed late Friday on behalf of JC, now a 68-year-old woman living in Greenwich, Connecticut, alleges that Dylan, then 23 or 24 years old, “exploited his status as a musician by grooming JC to gain her trust and to obtain control over her as part of his plan to sexually molest and abuse” her.


Anyhow, one good thing about being a super famous musician is that alibis aren't too hard to come by – tour dates collated in this Twitter thread suggest he wasn't even in America in May 1965, let alone in New York:

https://twitter.com/venetianblonde/status/1427386653941936128

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:09 pm
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That's a Looooooong time to wait to make a complaint.

The 60's and 70's was a different world to now, even the 80's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandy_Smith

It's entirely probable that it's true

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:14 pm
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Also entirely possible that someone with a mental illness has fantasised an assault by a famous person, a la Sister Jeanne in The Devils. I would be very much holding fire on this one until further details come to light, at the very least – but the fact that the dates seem impossible already casts significant doubt on the allegations (yes, victims can misremember dates; but if even those can't be corroborated then you don't have much basis for a case).
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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:49 am
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While sexual harassment is usually framed – implicitly and quite often explicitly – as a thing men do to women, it seems all-female spaces are far from immune:

https://thenewdaily.com.au/sport/football/2021/10/06/lisa-de-vanna-abuse/

There's more in this (paywalled) article:

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/football/matildas-star-lisa-de-vanna-details-horrific-abuse-and-bullying-in-footballs-toxic-culture/news-story/b2e11f790faa63f24a47d1ad90b1709c

Quote:
Former Matilda Elissia Carnavas, formerly Canham, was also selected for the camp and witnessed what De Vanna endured.

[…]

“And what happened to Lisa shouldn’t have happened. I witnessed everything Lisa has said.

“They targeted Lisa. It was a big joke. They were trying to provoke her (by sexually harassing her) and making her feel uncomfortable.

“It got to the point where Lisa snapped in that camp and became aggressive ... and wanted to punch them.”

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:51 pm
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Unsurprising really considering the large proportion of Lesbians in female team sport.

The shower comments are interesting, I thought the old communal showers after training were a relic from the 80's.

I remember U14's footy, guys were at massively different stages of development from bald as a badger to hairy as a bear, you just got in the shower, grabbed a cake of communal soap covered in pubes and washed the mud off.

I completely get how a teenage hetro female would have struggled with overt sexual harassment like that described by other females

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:49 am
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I'm not actually sure De Vanna is straight – you can be lesbian or bisexual and still be totally freaked out by that level of unwanted attention – but yes, it seems like that was a dynamic at play in some cases:

Quote:
Former W-League star Rhali Dobson has also claimed she was a target of predatory behaviour.

Dobson, who played for Melbourne City, Newcastle Jets, the Young Matildas and Matildas over a 13-year career, said the pressure off the field outweighed the pressure on it.

“Initially why I made myself so feminine was because I was trying to keep people away from me,” Dobson said.

“I know what it was like when I was younger, I didn’t want to even have a shower after the game.

“I’d wait until I got back to my room. There were a couple of us young ones that were all in the same boat.

“A lot of it is pushed under the rug. It was a case of grooming when I first came on the scene because I was asked: ‘Do I prefer boys or do you prefer girls?’

“I said I liked boys and remember just looking down at the ground and all the laughter and being told: ‘We’ll change that soon enough.’

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think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:06 pm
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gees thats bloody disgusting


- and the pubes in the soap. ugh. thanks dont need lunch now!

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:48 pm
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Not trying to come across as an apologist – clearly what the senator did here is inappropriate and all too common, and not something that any staffer should have to put up with – but am I the only one who feels a bit weirded out by terms like "sexual assault" (a term often used as interchangeable with rape in media reportage) being employed in cases like this?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/oct/26/huma-abedin-sexual-assault-us-senator-book-memoir

Quote:
She says the senator took off his blazer, rolled up his sleeves and made coffee while they continued to talk.

“Then, in an instant, it all changed. He plopped down to my right, put his left arm around my shoulder, and kissed me, pushing his tongue into my mouth, pressing me back on the sofa.

“I was so utterly shocked, I pushed him away. All I wanted was for the last 10 seconds to be erased.”

Abedin writes that the senator seemed surprised but apologized and said he had “misread” her “all this time”. As she considered how to leave “without this ending badly”, she writes, the senator asked if she wanted to stay.


So she signalled that she wasn't into it, and he immediately apologised and backed off, which is not exactly a common feature of sexual assaults. But what follows is especially noteworthy, I think:

Quote:
Abedin writes that she stayed friendly with the senator and soon “buried the incident”, which she wanted to forget, succeeding in erasing it from her mind “entirely”.


The common presumption here is that sexual assault is always traumatic, and that trauma leads to repression of memories. But there's another reason why stuff like this could have disappeared from her mind: because it wasn't that traumatising at all, merely a brief bit of unpleasantness that quickly became lost among the million other things happening in her life from day to day. (I can't say I know exactly how it feels to be a woman and to be kissed against my will, but I have had a few things in this realm happen to me, and yeah, not every one is seared into my brain permanently.)

I know this is a controversial line of thinking, but it's something that's been on my mind really since #MeToo first hit (if not before): the first step is the revelation of all of these previously publicly invisible experiences and providing an insight into the things that (particularly) women experience but rarely talk about; the second step, which is somewhat more fraught, is a wrangling by victims and broader society alike over how to properly categorise these experiences and quantify their harm. #MeToo provided plenty of opportunities for this through the reportage of edge cases like Aziz Ansari's, but unfortunately tended to go straight to the third step, which was retribution (of some kind) for perpetrators: i.e. something bad was done, this person did it, therefore this person should be jailed / fired / run out of public life.

I think that second step is one we're going to have to go back and grapple with again very soon, though – not because victims need to be told how to feel, but because the system for dealing with sexual misconduct is so broken and dysfunctional that we need a way forward that directly addresses harm and provides opportunities for restorative justice. Perhaps, in this case, all Abedin needed from the senator to heal was a profuse apology a few days later, an acknowledgement of how he had made her feel and a promise that he wouldn't do this to someone again. If that felt like sufficient remedy for her, that'd certainly have been a preferable outcome to an incident like this being swept aside at the time only to emerge as an open wound fifteen or so years down the track, perhaps with further ramifications for everyone involved if she decided to name names. Am I the only one who thinks this?

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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:22 am
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I can't belive I missed this, but I only just realised that famed philosopher John Searle was stripped of his titles and sent packing after one of apparently a string of sexual harassment complaints finally broke through. It was the classic abuse of authority scenario, overlooked' by UC Berkeley as he was a global star in his 80s.

I'm not into film and celebrity, and scumbags don't surprise, but this took me by surprise as I had read quite a lot of his work and had just looked up some of his arguments on the mind and consciousness again, only to discover this. Sounds like he was an outright abusive creep and likely for years, not a mere garden variety sleaze.

Very disappointing.

Here's an original news report, but a lawsuit followed and he was sent packing in disgrace in 2019: https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/03/23/berkeley-renowned-philosopher-john-searle-accused-of-sexual-assault-and-harassment-by-former-cal-aide/

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:54 pm
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I’d come across that too, PTID – I’m not really familiar with Searle’s work, but I also feel it’s very dispiriting that great thinkers are able to act this way with impunity.

I’m curious about how this affects your perception of him and his work – does it make you reevaluate his ideas at all? Do you think you’ll be less likely to engage with his work in future? Or is your view in the realm of "separating the art from the artist"?

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roar 



Joined: 01 Sep 2004


PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:52 pm
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I always try to separate the art from the artist but it's not always easy to do, which is also why I don't try to find out too much about the people I admire, work-wise.
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nomadjack 



Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Location: Essendon

PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 8:51 pm
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David wrote:
I’d come across that too, PTID – I’m not really familiar with Searle’s work, but I also feel it’s very dispiriting that great thinkers are able to act this way with impunity.

I’m curious about how this affects your perception of him and his work – does it make you reevaluate his ideas at all? Do you think you’ll be less likely to engage with his work in future? Or is your view in the realm of "separating the art from the artist"?


I love Searle's story about a conversation he has with Foucault about the impenetrable nature of his writing. According to Searle, Foucault told him
"In France, you gotta have ten percent incomprehensible, otherwise people won’t think it’s deep–they won’t think you’re a profound thinker.”
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roar 



Joined: 01 Sep 2004


PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:23 am
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Ha ha ha, that's brilliant!
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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:50 pm
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David wrote:
Also entirely possible that someone with a mental illness has fantasised an assault by a famous person, a la Sister Jeanne in The Devils. I would be very much holding fire on this one until further details come to light, at the very least – but the fact that the dates seem impossible already casts significant doubt on the allegations (yes, victims can misremember dates; but if even those can't be corroborated then you don't have much basis for a case).


Seems like that was the case.

https://www.9news.com.au/world/judge-dismisses-lawsuit-accusing-bob-dylan-of-sexually-abusing-a-12yearold-girl-in-the-1960s/0f5a151f-0ff3-4bcd-94ed-d8b294117192

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:13 am
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Interesting. Not the only thing Spacey was accused of (various adult men claimed that he had groped or assaulted them), but it was certainly the most sensational allegation and probably the one that led most directly to his downfall and literal erasure from the film he was working on:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/oct/20/kevin-spacey-anthony-rapp-new-york-jury-verdict

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