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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:49 pm
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Bumping this thread to post an excerpt of this article by Guy Rundle – which seems to me to be asking eminently sensible questions that not many others want to (or have thought to) deal with:

https://www.crikey.com.au/2021/04/07/violence-against-women-australia-protests/

Quote:
What women’s ministers should ask: why decades of no progress on violence?

Yesterday’s photo of Morrison sitting between two women, ready to co-chair the women’s safety cabinet committee was the absolute high point of a whole series of messages reminding one not to write about this issue.

It came shortly after right-wing anti-union journalist-activist Aaron Patrick’s brainspray about journalism-activism in the AFR, Paul Kelly’s weekend dismissal of the “women’s movement” as a potential election issue, and Peter Van Wrongselen doing everything he does.

Gawd help us. But with state and federal women’s ministers meeting today and the prospect of another inquiry, there are a couple of things one feels the need to say.

The first and most important is that, aside from calls to properly fund services, the suggestions and proposed solutions to violence and harassment that are coming from this new uprising are now almost wholly oriented towards increased surveillance, regulation, incarceration, and an ever-closer union with the police and the state.

A committee meets and proposes mandatory ID to start a social media account. Random alcohol and drug testing is proposed for MPs and their staffs. Coercive control legislation, which criminalises a whole new range of behaviours, is proposed on the basis of the latest popular theory on the roots of gendered violence. And on it goes.

This has been happening for some time. But in the recent round of protest and response, it has become dominant. The last vestiges of liberatory caution have been thrown away in the search for relatively rapid solutions to the problem.

As I’ve noted before, if there’s evidence that such measures will significantly lessen violence then they need to be considered. But if there is little or none then the demand for immediate action is simply fuelling a relentless attack on such liberties to no purpose — or at least to insufficiently scrutinised purpose.

That latter position is strengthened by the strong suspicion that, aside from some common-sense reforms in court practice, there has been little policy-based success in reducing violence against women. Anne Summers noted this possibility several days ago in The Age, pointing out that some of the best statistics indicate that there has been no change at all in such violence rates over 15 years.

Summers’ solution is more money, because certain federal funds haven’t been used. But they’ve spent a fair bit, and state governments have been spending large amounts on the issue. The total spend over two decades has been huge. If it was simply a lack of resources, you’d expect to see some sort of positive shift. If there truly has been no change, then the other question must be asked: is the whole basis of intervention policy simply wrong? A false steer?

Have we been applying ineffectual measures for two decades, largely because the state and NGO apparatuses in this area are pursuing intertwined but different aims — reducing violence and changing gender relations — with the firm conviction that the two are identical?

In that conception, many other explanations of gendered violence — that much of it is transactional but between unequal forces (woman slaps man, man puts woman in hospital), or that much of it is transferred (the systemic violence of the workplace, capitalism, racism, etc, applied to men being taken out on women) — have been all but excluded from consideration, as a “gender first” explanation began to take over in the late-1980s and became dominant in the ’90s.

This is the situation we face now. A lack of progress on gendered violence rates, meeting an increasingly insistent demand — headed by professional-class women — that change be rapid. This fuels the application of policy that may be absolutely wrong: the belief that change will occur through changing individual violent men.

To the liberal, individualist mind this seems the obvious, indeed only, course of action. To anyone from a sociology or criminology background it seems at the very least dubious and limited in its effects, if not partially counterproductive, due to the “backlash effect” (whereby people take on the identity they are being instructed against).

Round and round we have gone like this for close to two decades, caught in a pair of contradictory mindsets. The first is that all men are potentially violent, and that the “not all men” claim is a cop-out. The “all men” claim must push us towards a biologistic explanation for gendered violence. But underpinning policy is an opposite idea: a social constructionist belief that humans are a blank slate, constructed and capable of being readily reconstructed.

There is also very little critical-inquiry journalism on this at the moment. There isn’t much to choose between andropausal tantrums on the one side, and the mantra-like recitation of statistics rubbed like talismans over and over on the other. Most of them are useless to the argument

[…]

Ultimately we need to try and work out how much male domination is changeable, and how much of it is an irreducible feature of overarching patriarchy that won’t be demolished in a couple of generations, and beyond that, possibly, of biologically determined embodied sexed asymmetry.

The melancholy indication from comparative studies of gender-equality-pursuing nations like Sweden, and traditional patriarchal societies like Italy, is that the reduction on gendered violence slows as it gets lower, until it barely moves at all. Accepting the real possibility of that would dictate a whole series of different policies which might generate real, statistically visible success.

The essential demand of progressives — that things change simply because you want them to — is not easily dispensed with. In the short term, maybe someone at the meeting of women’s ministers can dispense with the platitudes and ask why so little of this vast policy apparatus appears to have worked, and why the only answer to this failure appears to be more surveillance, more coercion, more micro-control of everyday life?

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5 from the wing on debut 



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:21 pm
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Isn't the problem that men are just genetically hard wired to be more aggressive than women? There's no research that I have done on the topic, it's just my feeling.

I can give you one personal example, but there have been other similar instances. Yes, I know, it is only anecdotal, but it illustrates my point.

I am a long time weekend road cyclist and week day into the CBD cycling commuter. Not long before covid hit I was out riding solo one weekend. A quiet country road near home, maybe a car passing every 10 minutes, plenty of room to pass without waiting. I was keeping hard left, not in the way at all. Travelling at about 30kmh. I heard a car approaching from behind. As it came closer, it slowed, to the precise speed that I was doing. It moved to about 6 inches behind my rear wheel then the car horn started blaring. Constantly. I didn't slow at first as I didn't want to be hit by the car and there was nowhere to pull over to, with trees growing along the road. About 40m later I was able to pull over, and then the car stopped, all the time still leaning on the horn. My aggression kicked in and once my bike went down and I rushed at him the driver realised what was about to happen and took off. There were bends in the road but after a minute I could hear his horn again so I chased hard and it looked like when he saw me coming he took off again. As I got closer I realised what he had been doing. There was a female rider on the side of the road, in tears and completely terrified. He had done to her what he had done to me, but her reaction was very different.

That, in a nutshell, says a lot to me about the behaviour of men and women. It's very unlikely a female would have done what the driver did. On speaking to many other riders, the consensus was that my reaction was normal and so was the female cyclist's.

To finish off, I didn't report the matter to the police. Either did the female cyclist. We know through experience that it is a waste of time.
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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:21 pm
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I think it's probably undeniable that the "aggression" wiring is different between men and women (and we need look no further for evidence of that than clear differentials in other species), but it's also true that biologically predisposed isn't the same thing as determined – such behaviour can be reined in at least to some extent as a result of shifting cultural/social/legal norms (among other things). The question is whether this kind of phenomenon can ever be stamped out and, if not (as seems likely, given our inability to eradicate most other forms of violent crime), at what point we've exhausted our capacity to "change" men and need to instead start looking at other solutions to the problem.
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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:35 pm
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Testosterone vs Estrogen, but that's at best a contributory aspect not a causal one
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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:31 pm
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5 from the wing on debut wrote:
Isn't the problem that men are just genetically hard wired to be more aggressive than women? There's no research that I have done on the topic, it's just my feeling.

I can give you one personal example, but there have been other similar instances. Yes, I know, it is only anecdotal, but it illustrates my point.

I am a long time weekend road cyclist and week day into the CBD cycling commuter. Not long before covid hit I was out riding solo one weekend. A quiet country road near home, maybe a car passing every 10 minutes, plenty of room to pass without waiting. I was keeping hard left, not in the way at all. Travelling at about 30kmh. I heard a car approaching from behind. As it came closer, it slowed, to the precise speed that I was doing. It moved to about 6 inches behind my rear wheel then the car horn started blaring. Constantly. I didn't slow at first as I didn't want to be hit by the car and there was nowhere to pull over to, with trees growing along the road. About 40m later I was able to pull over, and then the car stopped, all the time still leaning on the horn. My aggression kicked in and once my bike went down and I rushed at him the driver realised what was about to happen and took off. There were bends in the road but after a minute I could hear his horn again so I chased hard and it looked like when he saw me coming he took off again. As I got closer I realised what he had been doing. There was a female rider on the side of the road, in tears and completely terrified. He had done to her what he had done to me, but her reaction was very different.

That, in a nutshell, says a lot to me about the behaviour of men and women. It's very unlikely a female would have done what the driver did. On speaking to many other riders, the consensus was that my reaction was normal and so was the female cyclist's.

To finish off, I didn't report the matter to the police. Either did the female cyclist. We know through experience that it is a waste of time.


shame you didnt get his number plate, thats attempted murder, what an arsehole

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:57 pm
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David wrote:
I think it's probably undeniable that the "aggression" wiring is different between men and women (and we need look no further for evidence of that than clear differentials in other species), but it's also true that biologically predisposed isn't the same thing as determined – such behaviour can be reined in at least to some extent as a result of shifting cultural/social/legal norms (among other things). The question is whether this kind of phenomenon can ever be stamped out and, if not (as seems likely, given our inability to eradicate most other forms of violent crime), at what point we've exhausted our capacity to "change" men and need to instead start looking at other solutions to the problem.


raise your sons to respect other people and especially women, dont raise your daughters to 'dress appropriately" i come from an area and generation of aggressive dominating men, especially those from certain European countries, it is partly generational, and like racism and homophobia it will work its way out to a point, ie my generation grew up being told by our elders whites were superior and gay was wrong (not in so many words but you know what i mean) i dont believe either for a minute, although i know plenty that still hold on to it, however my mind still thinks Gay and black. I wish i didnt notice these things but i do. and i still on occasion allow my hubby to take the lead. less and less, though. of course he wolud love to hang on to that, me, not so much! i dont really believe change to the extent needed is possible, we need to work forward, change how we raise our children. im guilty, instead of telling my kids to stay away from the 60 year old greek painter with the wandering elbows i should have said "dont let your elbows get within 5 feet of me or my kids" or i should have told hubby, but i just warned the kids and kept out of his way. progression is hard, and sometimes im not in the mood to make the effort. you would think i would get respect for doing a mans trade, but i dont, im treated as if it was a token job, good on the guys for allowing me to do it!

violence. I truly believe my father is a narcist, or maybe i hope so, otherwise i have to wonder why he derived such pleasure from being a bully. his own mother was afraid of him. and yet she raised him letting him believe he was entitled. there was no way on earth my 5 foot 4 8 stone mother could stand up to my 6 foot 100kg brute bully of a father. they should have locked him up and thrown away the key, he put her in her grave early, she never stood a chance, long before she walked out never to return, he had already killed her.

and me. you'd think im not easily intimidated. you'd be wrong. i stand up for myself but it scares the shit out of me. got a black eye for it once, i walked away form what i thought was the love of my life. i dont think i have ever fully trusted a man again. ever.

i feel for men who have been forced to embrace the macho man when they really didnt want to be him. lazy parenting, bully fathers, and mothers. i dont know if its fully fixable. more men need to stand up at the boys night out and say "dont talk about women that way" and that man needs someone to back him up past the jeers. I think for the most part women are standing up for themselves more, but sadly there will always be a line. because in general the power/weight ratio is not in our favour. inequality in the work place, casual sexism, sarcasm that always has a grain of truth. I had a bully father, and so i was bullied at school, treated as a joke an a novelty at work, and a second class citizen most of my life. I know im not, but i have to tell myself that every day. some days i win that battle, some days i cry myself to sleep. we need to change how we raise our children from day one, dont set them up for a lifetime of, for men, not being allowed or able to express their feelings so they act out in other ways, and for women, feeling like they are always a step behind. honestly i look back, and i know i never stood a chance. im raising my girls honestly and differently.

teach your sons to respect, and teach your daughters to demand it.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:36 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
Testosterone vs Estrogen, but that's at best a contributory aspect not a causal one


i actually think there is a lot to this, knowing a man on hormone treatments who was weaned off them, and the testosterone is coming back, and man it makes PMT look like a walk in the park

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:59 pm
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think positive wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
Testosterone vs Estrogen, but that's at best a contributory aspect not a causal one


i actually think there is a lot to this, knowing a man on hormone treatments who was weaned off them, and the testosterone is coming back, and man it makes PMT look like a walk in the park


As I said, it's at best a contributory aspect.

Testosterone enhances aggression.

Alcohol impairs judgement and reduces inhibitions

Being drunk may be a contributory reason why someone does something bad or dumb but it's not an excuse, being loaded with testosterone doesn't counteract you knowing it's wrong to belt someone but doing it anyway.

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:14 pm
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Just as a point of interest, I've been speaking recently with some senior people in the Family Violence space. The workload of support workers has increased massively in the past few years and certainly so in the past 12 months.

That could be that violence has increased or it could be that victims appetite to report it and seek help has increased or both. Dunno.

Giving credit where it's due, this is actually a good initiative from the state government, typical bureaucratic issues notwithstanding.

https://orangedoor.vic.gov.au/

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:51 am
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think positive wrote:
David wrote:
I think it's probably undeniable that the "aggression" wiring is different between men and women (and we need look no further for evidence of that than clear differentials in other species), but it's also true that biologically predisposed isn't the same thing as determined – such behaviour can be reined in at least to some extent as a result of shifting cultural/social/legal norms (among other things). The question is whether this kind of phenomenon can ever be stamped out and, if not (as seems likely, given our inability to eradicate most other forms of violent crime), at what point we've exhausted our capacity to "change" men and need to instead start looking at other solutions to the problem.


raise your sons to respect other people and especially women, dont raise your daughters to 'dress appropriately" i come from an area and generation of aggressive dominating men, especially those from certain European countries, it is partly generational, and like racism and homophobia it will work its way out to a point, ie my generation grew up being told by our elders whites were superior and gay was wrong (not in so many words but you know what i mean) i dont believe either for a minute, although i know plenty that still hold on to it, however my mind still thinks Gay and black. I wish i didnt notice these things but i do. and i still on occasion allow my hubby to take the lead. less and less, though. of course he wolud love to hang on to that, me, not so much! i dont really believe change to the extent needed is possible, we need to work forward, change how we raise our children. im guilty, instead of telling my kids to stay away from the 60 year old greek painter with the wandering elbows i should have said "dont let your elbows get within 5 feet of me or my kids" or i should have told hubby, but i just warned the kids and kept out of his way. progression is hard, and sometimes im not in the mood to make the effort. you would think i would get respect for doing a mans trade, but i dont, im treated as if it was a token job, good on the guys for allowing me to do it!

violence. I truly believe my father is a narcist, or maybe i hope so, otherwise i have to wonder why he derived such pleasure from being a bully. his own mother was afraid of him. and yet she raised him letting him believe he was entitled. there was no way on earth my 5 foot 4 8 stone mother could stand up to my 6 foot 100kg brute bully of a father. they should have locked him up and thrown away the key, he put her in her grave early, she never stood a chance, long before she walked out never to return, he had already killed her.

and me. you'd think im not easily intimidated. you'd be wrong. i stand up for myself but it scares the shit out of me. got a black eye for it once, i walked away form what i thought was the love of my life. i dont think i have ever fully trusted a man again. ever.

i feel for men who have been forced to embrace the macho man when they really didnt want to be him. lazy parenting, bully fathers, and mothers. i dont know if its fully fixable. more men need to stand up at the boys night out and say "dont talk about women that way" and that man needs someone to back him up past the jeers. I think for the most part women are standing up for themselves more, but sadly there will always be a line. because in general the power/weight ratio is not in our favour. inequality in the work place, casual sexism, sarcasm that always has a grain of truth. I had a bully father, and so i was bullied at school, treated as a joke an a novelty at work, and a second class citizen most of my life. I know im not, but i have to tell myself that every day. some days i win that battle, some days i cry myself to sleep. we need to change how we raise our children from day one, dont set them up for a lifetime of, for men, not being allowed or able to express their feelings so they act out in other ways, and for women, feeling like they are always a step behind. honestly i look back, and i know i never stood a chance. im raising my girls honestly and differently.

teach your sons to respect, and teach your daughters to demand it.


It sounds like you’re doing a great job, Jo. A lot of the time people repeat the harm that was done to them and continue the suffering down generations, but you’ve channelled it instead into trying to do things better, and that’s pretty damn brave. There’s a quote I heard a while back, "courage is contagious", and I think that’s precisely how this stuff works: like pushing back when everyone else is laughing at a sexist joke, or trying to set a different standard even if it sets you apart. One person standing up makes others feel like they can too.

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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:20 pm
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cheers mate, I certainly push back when others dont, and it aint always easy, or beneficial to my mental stability, but I dont see me changing, and hopefully, my children at least, will see the reasons I continue to say no instead of joining in. cheers xx
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