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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I mean, the original article Morrigu posted suggests that it’s something that’s been very inconsistently monitored, and also very widespread. Reminds me of the saying that if you owe the bank a thousand dollars it’s your problem, but if you owe the bank a million dollars it’s the bank’s problem. For whatever reason, it seems that the behaviour has been allowed to become somewhat normalised. Sheet that home to individual opportunists all you like, but it does suggest that maybe it might be worth considering walking and chewing gum with this.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | | I mean, the original article Morrigu posted suggests that it’s something that’s been very inconsistently monitored, and also very widespread. Reminds me of the saying that if you owe the bank a thousand dollars it’s your problem, but if you owe the bank a million dollars it’s the bank’s problem. For whatever reason, it seems that the behaviour has been allowed to become somewhat normalised. Sheet that home to individual opportunists all you like, but it does suggest that maybe it might be worth considering walking and chewing gum with this. |
so maybe we need to go with Stuis suggestion and shoot the next 20?
will that get it through to them? since they dont want to read about it?
having crossed form the US to mexico, and then vis versa, i can tell you that not many people are trying to sneak shit past those bloody big guns on the way back to the states!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Morrigu wrote: | | Tannin wrote: | The thing I'm seeing here is two points of view which are both, in my view, absolutely right.
Yes, it is the responsibility of the traveler to inform himself or herself of the applicable laws and customs. Yes, there is no excuse for (e.g.) trying to bring in pork products in your handbag. Yes (and I'm sure that Stui would agree with this) let's make it clear that if you try to (e.g.) smuggle pork in, you get instantly deported. No exceptions. And if you are an Australian citizen, then we cancel your passport. Don't bother applying for another one, you are not fit to hold it.
But yes, we do a poor job of communicating our laws and customs. We just expect other cultures and other languages to somehow know and understand. Compare what we do with what other countries do: many government departments and agencies go to a lot of trouble to help put people in the picture, help mug travellers like you and me stay out of trouble. They work hard at it.
We could learn from that. But we are more interested in pumping more and more people through for lower and lower cost. Nothing else matters except the money. And if we keep screwing things up, that won't last long either. |
No sorry it is the responsibility of every traveller - and if they are going through a travel agent /company then they share the responsibility - we are not talking about poor uneducated villagers here - we are talking about people who have the means to travel! Who here would have any great sympathy for an Australian who is arrested overseas for say drug trafficking? No one absolutely no one - the cry would be they should of known - no excuse!
Just one site as an example
https://china.embassy.gov.au/bjng/visiting_australia.html.
And in Chinese language - no excuses none! |
exactly! anyone who has been on an international flight knows this!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| think positive wrote: | | David wrote: | Good post, Tannin. Not sure why everyone’s jumping all over PTID here; what he’s saying makes perfect sense to me – having a law is one thing, but if it’s not effectively communicated then you’re going to get a lot of (not just malicious but clueless) people breaking it.
And yes, on the flipside, you can lead a horse to water but can’t make it drink. We all know that. But slating everything home to individual responsibility is a good way to distract from structural failure. |
but it is effectively communicated, do you need to go all bali and have pics of people facing the firing squad for them to get it? you are handed a note on the plane before you land, its in lots of different languages, it tells you exactly, and i mean exactly what you can bring into the country. and then they give you another slip you have to fill in and sign.
where is this not effective communication?
anyone who cant understand "do not bring food into the country" is to dumb to be on the plane.
they know, thats why they hide it! |
Okay, let me try to explain this. Regulations and taboos are cultural constructs through-and-through. People interpret them, and can only interpret them, with reference to what they know.
E.g., if you eat a certain food everyday, without countervailing scientific knowledge chances are you'll think it will be okay for anyone to eat. If you lack education in environmental science concepts, it would be very counterintuitive to think that something which is fine in your body could somehow cause trouble if thrown in a bin. And so on.
Now mix that sort of reasoning with a different notion of law and penalty. In every country there are all kinds of laws that are not really policed and penalised, and therefore act more like suggestions. In low-income countries this is going to be even more the case because legal codification will be in its infancy.
Then, if you're a person of a certain age and status in many countries you have great authority, and no police officer is going to embarrass you over a bit of pork. That would involve breaking a far weightier taboo than turning a blind eye and waving you on.
At the same time, you have morality and goodness on your side. You're only sneaking the pork in to cook a special meal for your son whom you haven't seen for a few years. And it's local pork, which you've been told has special properties and tastes different. What sort of human is going to get in the way of a mother cooking a home meal for her son?
Also, you've heard a few stories about this customs thing, but plenty of people take pork with them to other countries, and they've never been in any kind of trouble. Even friends who gone to Australia. Just tuck it somewhere and you'll be right.
So, before you've even read the brochure or signed the customs form, that's your frame of reference. It's like wearing a pair of glasses that changes the meaning of the words.
I'm not saying what I've described is precisely what's happening, but I am illustrating the types of things we know are going on. This stuff has been tested a hundreds of times across hundreds of cultures; I'm not saying anything that isn't well-known.
Where Stui sees 'phuc*tards' and you see recalcitrant 'ba$tards', I see a fairly ordinary mix of people doing what people usually do given their constraints. I've lived in close quarters with other modes of thinking for years such that I learned to bite my tongue even at apparent absurdity. People have their reasons; they have their logics and inner worlds and within a certain context these work well. And when it comes to certain things they may work far better than our frame of reference.
It takes more than just translated text on a leaflet to overcome this sort of cultural barrier. And if you're not overcoming it, you've failed your communication task.
Not to mention other things likely going on, such as our authorities using low-cost translators rather than intercultural specialists; insufficient checking and enforcement (thereby reinforcing the mistaken view that this is a trivial law); no clear assignment of authority and responsibility; interfering politicians and lobbyists; shonky outsourcing, etc.
We have to think things through beyond our own world knowledge sometimes.
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Last edited by pietillidie on Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Having been to Bali airport and to Dubai I don’t see other countries making these allowances for Aussies or anyone else. Maybe she should invite her son home and cook for him there.
Weed is legal in some countries should you get a slap on the wrist for using that too?
The onus is on the traveller. I research the laws and customs of where ever it is I’m headed, it’s called common sense and if they are too dumb to do that (mind you they are smart enough to hide these things) They should stay home.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^You seem unaware that many cultures don't have a history of independent knowledge seeking outside a network of trusted authorities. A person could have 40 IQ points on you, but they might live in an authority system which simply lacks a tradition of individual, independent critical learning, and might not feel the need or even feel comfortable questioning what Uncle Fred insisted was fact.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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