How tall is too tall? Charting our pathway to September.

[swoop42]

() No. of structural talls
*Wildcard tall.

Round 1 vs Geelong +22: Cameron, Cox, Howe, McStay, Mihocek, Moore, Murphy (7) + *McInnes 38% TOG
Round 2 vs Port Adelaide +71: Cameron, Cox, Frampton, McStay, Mihocek, Moore, Murphy (7) + *McInnes 19% TOG
Round 3 vs Richmond +14: Cameron, Frampton, Johnson, McStay, Mihocek, Moore, Murphy (7)
Round 4 vs Brisbane -33: Frampton, Johnson, McStay, Mihocek, Moore, Murphy (6) + *McInnes 42% TOG
Round 5 vs St Kilda +6: Frampton, Johnson, McStay, Mihocek, Moore, Murphy (6) + *Wilson 48% TOG
Round 6 vs Essendon +13: Frampton, Johnson, Kreuger, Mihocek, Moore, Ruscoe (6) + *Kelly 34% TOG
Round 7 vs Adelaide +1: Frampton, Johnson, Kreuger, Mihocek, Moore, Murphy (6) + *Kelly 52% TOG
Round 8 vs Sydney +29: Cox, Frampton, Johnson, Mihocek, Moore, Murphy (6)
Round 9 vs GWS +65: Cox, Johnson, Mihocek, Moore, Murphy (5) + *McInnes 24% TOG
Round 10 vs Carlton +28: Cameron, Cox, Johnson, Mihocek, Moore, Murphy (6)
Round 11 vs North Melbourne +35: Cameron, Cox, Johnson, Mihocek, Moore, Murphy (6)
Round 12 vs West Coast +63: Cameron, Cox, Frampton, Johnson, Mihocek, Moore, Murphy (7)
Round 13 vs Melbourne -4: Cameron, Cox, Frampton, Johnson, Mihocek, Moore, Murphy (7) + *McInnes 78% TOG
Round 15 vs Adelaide +2: Cameron, Cox, Howe, Johnson, Mihocek, Moore, Murphy (7)
Round 16 vs Gold Coast +78: Cameron, Cox, Frampton, Howe, Mihocek, Moore, Murphy (7)
Round 17 vs Western Bulldogs +12: Cameron, Cox, Frampton, Howe, Johnson, Moore, Murphy (7)
Round 18 vs Fremantle +46: Cox, Frampton, Howe, Johnson, McStay, Moore, Murphy (7)
Round 19 vs Port Adelaide +2: Cameron, Cox, Howe, McStay, Mihocek, Moore, Murphy (7)
Round 20 vs Carlton -17: Cameron, Cox, Howe, McStay, Mihocek, Moore, Murphy (7)


With so much debate about how our side will structure up heading towards finals I thought I'd look back on our season to date and see if we can find an answer.

Injuries aside the first thing that stands out is that our 22 is almost certain to contain 7 talls I'd class as structural.

At this stage Cameron, Cox, Moore, Murphy, Howe and Mihocek would appear locks given all have featured immediately in the side when deemed fit and available.

I still believe McStay will also be considered a lock by McRae despite returning via the VFL unlike Howe, Cameron and Cox.

For those still dreaming of a three pronged tall forward line featuring Johnson, or Frampton as defensive insurance then the first 2 rounds of the season where a tall in McInnes was the substitute provides hope one of them could yet fit within the team of 23. With a full complement of talls available however I remain to be convinced either Frampton or Johnson will fit within the 22 if we continue with the Cameron/Cox combination.

P.S- Given we play Port in 2 weeks and a lot of people consider that our most complete performance of the season to date, it's interesting to note that Frampton played in that game with Howe out injured. While I'm not suggesting Frampton should replace Howe in the side I do wonder if we can afford to not have him in the team also with Dixon 200cm 110kg, Marshall 198cm 94kg and Finlayson 197cm 93kg (didn't play last time) to contend with. Dixon in particular is the type of beast we drafted him for.

[qldmagpie67]

Swoop I think it’s a horses for courses debate really

For mine our best team (if everyone is fit) looks like

FB Maynard Frampton IQ
HB Noble Moore Howe
C Josh D Crisp Pendles
HF Elliott McStay Nick D
FF Adams Checker Hill
R Cameron Mitchell JDG
Int Markov McCreery Lipinski Cox
Sub Sidey
Emergency take your pick

I think in final we need a big body FB
We need pace on every line to play the style we want and to be able to keep it up for 4 quarters
And we need manic pressure players

You can take McStay out and insert Cox in the forward line and add another runner to the bench if you please
For mine Murphy can’t play finals he losses to many 1 on 1 contests and is easily exposed
He’s now 9 wins from 37 1 on 1 contests inside forward 50 for the year
IQ has lost only 1 single 1 on 1 contest inside forward 50 for the year

[Pies2016]

^^^

I think the above “ structural “ philosophy is pretty sound and I get it that some will argue the merits of various individuals over others.
That team excludes the likes of Johnson, Murphy, WHE and even Sidey if you see the tactical sub as an out. Rather than argue the toss with those players who have missed out, we should be salivating at the thought of having them as serious alternatives.
My thoughts are similar in that Fly will only go with two genuine big bodies in the forward line and others around them will be made up of three high pressure small forwards and a resting mid fielder ( you would love the luxury of it being either Jordy or Naicos )
They will also go with two rucks, likely Cameron and Cox and the cherry on top is that both can at least play a role as tall forwards ( albeit Cameron has the yips )
I think where the horses for courses comes in, is the backline and our back six starting line up will be determined more by what the opposition are serving up on the day, rather than here’s our best six and this is what we will go with every week regardless.
I can’t stress enough how valuable all this experimentation will help us in September. From a coaching point of view, the best wins in footy are when you are forced to throw the magnets around through injury and you still get the win. We bemoan injuries but “ crisis “ creates opportunity and the knowledge gained from players adapting to plan B roles will hold us in great stead in September.
Probably the only real guarantee we will have regarding selection in September is that there is no way known you will ever have your full list available for an entire month.
Go Pies.

[qldmagpie67]

Pies2016
The sub I now see at really the 23rd player
I just thought the leg speed was a little more important than experience
But Sidey could come in and play as a small forward Adams could be sub really wouldn’t change much
I think a Nick D is now going to spend loads more time in the centre which means others must adjust to suit that
I’ve been hugely impressed with Markov on a wing
His speed getting up and back ans breaking lines has really given us another dimension to our running game
We may go in 1 tall less and put the likes of Sidey or McCreery into the starting team and put a defender on the bench
If everyone is available it is a embarrassment of riches really on who misses out

[Harrysz]

Because of McStay's lengthy absence, we still don't know if he'll successfully hold down a key forward position, complementary with Miocek. We still don't know if Ash Johnston should be a permanent part of the team. We know he has talent and X factor, but he's inconsistent and had a poor finals series last year. We don't know whether Cox should be parked in the forward line, or should even be in the side. He has stopped clunking marks and his goalkicking has become wayward.

In defence, Darcy Moore is the only tall player. Should Frampton be there? He's a bit slow but Darcy can't do it all on his own. The high number of marks taken by opposition forwards against us is a worry. Ugle-Hagen was a real threat last Friday night. Luckily, his set goal kicking was off-beam.

These issues have me worried. I hope that by the time we get to the finals that the places will be all set.

[Boot]

No need to force the issue at the moment as there is still 7 matches to go before the first final. Hence I think McStay will have to get at least another full game into him before he forces anyone out of the team. With a VFL bye this weekend that gives another two games at least to sort out who from Johnson, Frampton and Cox would make way for a fit and in form McStay.
I notice some criticism of Nathan Murphy's one on one contests earlier in this thread. I am a fan of Murphy's contesting ability and I think its more that he is moving to cover other opponents as part of the defensive game plan that gives those opponents the advantage. I'd persist with Murphy in preference to Frampton as I think Murphy is faster and probably more desperate too.

[MatthewBoydFanClub]

Any way you want to look at it, Murphy is in our best 22.

[RudeBoy]

I agree Boot.

I'd only add, that on the evidence so far, Frampton, Cox, Cameron and Johnson and Murphy are all ahead of the queue for a spot in our team, with McStay languishing behind.

[Gerry Cooper]

[23 YIPPEE!!!]

More importantly who do we feel is better ruckman cox or cameron.

I feel Cox is more bash and crash type.

To me Cameron isnt a ruck man.

Fails to wins hit outs. he is more of a tall mid then ruck man.

Who do we want rucking in the finals.

[Boot]

[stui magpie]

[23 YIPPEE!!!]

Always like Cox to start in the ruck then cameron to blend into the role as matches wear on.

Both are handy forwards

[Pies2016]

One of of the caveats in all these preferred big man options, is those individuals own current form line. We don’t have many big blokes in great form right now but thankfully that hasn’t stopped us winning. It wouldn’t take much for any of this group to lift their current output and take ownership of a position in September.
Cameron seems to be on the up in recent weeks after a slow start from his knee injury. Cox hasn’t done much at all in the last couple weeks, so it wouldn’t be hard for him to show some improvement. I’m less critical of Frampton because he’s filled holes at both ends of the ground and been ok, if not dominant. McStay is finally playing again, so he obviously has the most improvement in him because right now, he’s off a zero base.
Point being, there’s still seven more rounds before finals and plenty of time for any of these guys to own a position. It’s always nice to have competition for spots but that doesn’t mean much if none of those options have any decent form in the first place. More than anything, we’re really looking for any one or two of these guys to step up and lock in a spot. Until that happens, the debate will rage on for weeks to come.

[swoop42]

Round 18 vs Fremantle: Cox, Frampton, Howe, Johnson, McStay, Moore, Murphy (7)

Fingers crossed Mihocek and Cameron are right to return next week (alongside no fresh injuries) and we get the best insight for the year on how the coaches view the pecking order of our tall options.