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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| watt price tully wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | How is entering into an arrangement with the UK and USA, 2 long term allies, to buy Submaries, impacting on our sovereignty?   |
Which part is not would have been the right question. |
Bullshit, it's a genuine question. You made a statement, I think it makes no sense. We were always going to get new Subs from somewhere, they were always going to cost a lot and take years to get, how can making this deal impact our sovereignty?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| What'sinaname wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | What'sinaname wrote: | | ^ to be fair, I’d take Dan’s word on this as he a proven track record of wasting money. |
Oh contraire, the people of Victoria have endorsed the thrice elected Premier of Victoria the Right Honourable Daniel Andrews (who increased his majority in every election btw) reckon your wrong 😊 and know he spends tax payers wisely despite not getting a fair slice of the GST. |
Victoria's debt levels are so high, and projected to climb higher (Victoria’s net debt will rise to $167.5 billion in 2025/26, compared to a combined figure of $159.2 billion for other three eastern Australian states), that I can see how it's easy for you to dismiss wasting $172 million on unfit for purpose PPE equipment as a nothing.
https://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/file_uploads/20211027_Management_Covid19_zcFZKGdh.pdf |
Straw man arguments abound in your nonsense above.
All states bought PPE at the time. Unlike you they were trying to protect Victorians. Unlike you all Governments including the Victorias Government have a responsibility to look after its citizens.
How you can so easily dismiss the health and safety of people might be OK for you but not for those with responsibility or the majority of the voting public.
I know who I’d vote for; hang on a second I think I might recall that the current state Government were elected for a third successive time with increased majorities on each occasion. Seems like the people of Victoria like to have a Government who is concerned about their health and safety too.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | How is entering into an arrangement with the UK and USA, 2 long term allies, to buy Submaries, impacting on our sovereignty? |
Which part is not would have been the right question. |
Bullshit, it's a genuine question. You made a statement, I think it makes no sense. We were always going to get new Subs from somewhere, they were always going to cost a lot and take years to get, how can making this deal impact our sovereignty? |
Yes but we could have had Camembert rather than Pine Gap hot dogs 🌭😉 at a fraction of the cost and without being friggin’ noocleyar.
With submarine instructions in French what could go wrong?
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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What'sinaname 
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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| watt price tully wrote: |
Straw man arguments abound in your nonsense above.
All states bought PPE at the time. Unlike you they were trying to protect Victorians. Unlike you all Governments including the Victorias Government have a responsibility to look after its citizens.
How you can so easily dismiss the health and safety of people might be OK for you but not for those with responsibility or the majority of the voting public.
I know who I’d vote for; hang on a second I think I might recall that the current state Government were elected for a third successive time with increased majorities on each occasion. Seems like the people of Victoria like to have a Government who is concerned about their health and safety too. |
Lol. You can't even admit that Dan wasted $172m on useless PPE equipment despite all of the evidence that he did. Well, he threw Mikakos under the bus because when things go wrong, it's always someone else's fault.
You're a Dan fanboi. |
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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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| stui magpie wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | How is entering into an arrangement with the UK and USA, 2 long term allies, to buy Submaries, impacting on our sovereignty? |
Which part is not would have been the right question. |
Bullshit, it's a genuine question. You made a statement, I think it makes no sense. We were always going to get new Subs from somewhere, they were always going to cost a lot and take years to get, how can making this deal impact our sovereignty? |
This article may answer your question Stui...
https://www.smh.com.au/national/aukus-subs-deal-binds-us-to-a-country-that-can-change-its-mind-on-whim-20230316-p5cskq.html
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Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| What'sinaname wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: |
Straw man arguments abound in your nonsense above.
All states bought PPE at the time. Unlike you they were trying to protect Victorians. Unlike you all Governments including the Victorias Government have a responsibility to look after its citizens.
How you can so easily dismiss the health and safety of people might be OK for you but not for those with responsibility or the majority of the voting public.
I know who I’d vote for; hang on a second I think I might recall that the current state Government were elected for a third successive time with increased majorities on each occasion. Seems like the people of Victoria like to have a Government who is concerned about their health and safety too. |
Lol. You can't even admit that Dan wasted $172m on useless PPE equipment despite all of the evidence that he did. Well, he threw Mikakos under the bus because when things go wrong, it's always someone else's fault.
You're a Dan fanboi. |
Histrionic reactions and name calling are no substitute for reasoned argument. Next.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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What'sinaname
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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You said Dan knows how to spend taxpayer fund wisely. I provided you evidence to the contrary. It’s not an argument anymore.
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Fighting against the objectification of woman. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| pietillidie wrote: | | David wrote: | | What Andrews said, if I understand correctly, is that the money would have been better spent on Medicare than these submarines that chew up hundreds of billions of dollars and that we may well never use. Hard to disagree with that. |
Not using them is kind of the point, though.
As much as anything it's a payment to the US and UK for their deterrent, so Australia is constrained by what they want. I do hope it has a science spillover, but again that's not really the point.
It wasn't necessary before China's bellicose turn because all the alliance could do was drag Australia into Vietnams and Iraqs. It's a different matter now, though, and Australia has to pay its way, even though dumb Anglo-American wars make the calculation less clear than the reflexive conservative view. |
And what if the US elects Donald Trump in 2024? Or some equally deranged Republican then or in the near future? (An outcome that is surely inevitable, given the state of that party.)
The lesson of Iraq was surely not that the Bush administration were bad apples, but that they were symptomatic of a deep sickness and malevolence in that country that is not going away any time soon. I can certainly appreciate the view that they're a lesser evil than China on many counts and that beggars can't be choosers when it comes to allying ourselves with superpowers, but the US is far from a reliable wagon to be hitching ourselves to. I see absolutely no reason to be confident that they'll work in our best interests in the years to come.
| stui magpie wrote: | | We were always going to get new Subs from somewhere, they were always going to cost a lot and take years to get, how can making this deal impact our sovereignty? |
I have no love for Macron, but there's no question that France (and the EU more broadly) is a much more neutral player in the world chess game than the US. Allying with France, India, Canada and so on gives us far more capacity to hedge our bets in the US/China standoff and maximise our relationship with both while maintaining our principles and independence. But following the script of the last few decades and throwing all our eggs in the US basket is, I think, only going to promise more of what we've seen in the past as that superpower continues its irreversible decline.
That is an excellent article, and the concerns it raises should be treated seriously. See this excerpt in particular:
| Quote: | | Long-term interoperability with the US Navy implies long-term political alignment with the US. Australia has placed a very big bet on two unknowns: that the US’s internal political stability and the US-led global order will endure into the 2070s. We don’t get to vote in US elections, however, and it is obvious that in recent years it has developed a sharply polarised domestic landscape and the prospect of democratic erosion. Australia must take out some form of political insurance in the event we find ourselves tied structurally to an illiberal, unreliable power that changes its stance from one administration to another – something radically different to the America we have long been used to. |
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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What'sinaname
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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The time to think about that has passed David. We need the protection of the nuclear umbrella and the US offers the only genuine protection of a threat through the Pacific. We at least share an ocean with the US.
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Fighting against the objectification of woman. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Skids wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | How is entering into an arrangement with the UK and USA, 2 long term allies, to buy Submaries, impacting on our sovereignty? |
Which part is not would have been the right question. |
Bullshit, it's a genuine question. You made a statement, I think it makes no sense. We were always going to get new Subs from somewhere, they were always going to cost a lot and take years to get, how can making this deal impact our sovereignty? |
This article may answer your question Stui...
https://www.smh.com.au/national/aukus-subs-deal-binds-us-to-a-country-that-can-change-its-mind-on-whim-20230316-p5cskq.html |
Thanks Skids, that explains it well.
In short, we haven't ceded our soverignty at all, but we have created risk that will need ongoing management, particularly in case of conflict.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| What'sinaname wrote: | | You said Dan knows how to spend taxpayer fund wisely. I provided you evidence to the contrary. It’s not an argument anymore. |
As usual you provided a meaningless link devoid of context. I provided you with the context.
All states overspent on PPE because your mate Scotty from Marketing abdicated his responsibilities to Australia and said to the States you’re on your own. All states wanted to do best for the health of their citizens. So the states went about things individually and competitively to the detriment of the population as a whole. Scotty could have fixed it with Josh from accounts.
NSW also bought unusable PPE.
As usual your link is without context is meaningless.
https://amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/may/20/nsw-government-underspent-on-ppe-and-mental-health-audit-of-75bn-covid-spending-finds
This was a chaotic time for all states and the Federal Government playing party politics added to it.
Daniel Andrews was voted in with an increased majority for the third successive election and certainly didn’t waste money on submarines.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: |
Thanks Skids, that explains it well.
In short, we haven't ceded our soverignty at all, but we have created risk that will need ongoing management, particularly in case of conflict. |
Nah, by the time you get the picture we’ll be torpedoed 😜😉
I reckon for a fraction of the price of a submarine we could all have individual tuition in Mandarin.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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What'sinaname
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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| watt price tully wrote: | | What'sinaname wrote: | | You said Dan knows how to spend taxpayer fund wisely. I provided you evidence to the contrary. It’s not an argument anymore. |
As usual you provided a meaningless link devoid of context. I provided you with the context.
All states overspent on PPE because your mate Scotty from Marketing abdicated his responsibilities to Australia and said to the States you’re on your own. All states wanted to do best for the health of their citizens. So the states went about things individually and competitively to the detriment of the population as a whole. Scotty could have fixed it with Josh from accounts.
NSW also bought unusable PPE.
As usual your link is without context is meaningless.
https://amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/may/20/nsw-government-underspent-on-ppe-and-mental-health-audit-of-75bn-covid-spending-finds
This was a chaotic time for all states and the Federal Government playing party politics added to it.
Daniel Andrews was voted in with an increased majority for the third successive election and certainly didn’t waste money on submarines. |
whataboutisms |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
I get it, I don't think you do. Just go back to congratulating Dan on the great job he's doing keeping the CFMEU employed building roads while the Public Hospital system bleeds to death. 
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| What'sinaname wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | What'sinaname wrote: | | You said Dan knows how to spend taxpayer fund wisely. I provided you evidence to the contrary. It’s not an argument anymore. |
As usual you provided a meaningless link devoid of context. I provided you with the context.
All states overspent on PPE because your mate Scotty from Marketing abdicated his responsibilities to Australia and said to the States you’re on your own. All states wanted to do best for the health of their citizens. So the states went about things individually and competitively to the detriment of the population as a whole. Scotty could have fixed it with Josh from accounts.
NSW also bought unusable PPE.
As usual your link is without context is meaningless.
https://amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/may/20/nsw-government-underspent-on-ppe-and-mental-health-audit-of-75bn-covid-spending-finds
This was a chaotic time for all states and the Federal Government playing party politics added to it.
Daniel Andrews was voted in with an increased majority for the third successive election and certainly didn’t waste money on submarines. |
whataboutisms |
😂😂 oh wait you’re serious 🤦♂️
Like I said text without context is meaningless as was your link.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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