Bushfires and fuel reduction

[David]

Thanks Ken. I suspect what’s happening is that genuine frustration over inability to do preventative burns – seemingly because it fails risk analysis and/or resources aren’t available – is being spun into a story in which the main culprits are the sort of out-of-touch la-la-land greenies who oppose kangaroo culls (with do-nothing green bureaucrats giving their cause legitimacy). The only trouble is that these villains seem to be mostly made out of whole cloth. A few exist, no doubt (and their concerns may even be valid, but let’s put that to one side), but the picture I’m getting is that the vast majority of failed hazard reduction has nothing to do with this narrative.

Now, there may well be a case that authorities have been too cautious and need to relax the rules around burns. I’m sure this will be discussed ad nauseam once the smoke clears, and hopefully lessons will be learned, if need be. But the way these fires have been spun into an attack on environmentalist boogiemen is pretty shameless, and its pushers on talk radio and in the Murdoch papers need to take a good hard look at themselves.

[stui magpie]

[think positive]

No one here blaming the greens,
Blame whoever is stopping the fuel reduction burns,probably don’t want to spend the money, false economy.

But the coal miners are not to blame either

[pietillidie]

^Of course the coal miners are partly to blame, and significantly so when you consider the modern human exacerbation of warming. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the poor bloke who's just after a well-paying job at a mine, but fossil fuels mining companies have huge responsibility where emissions — and by extension the severity of bushfire-conducive conditions — are concerned.

Like anything in a big economy and atmosphere their contribution is statistical and indirect, and we've only known about this for a few decades, but that's how large-scale problems work, and we don't have time for perfect information. We'll never get a handle on the warming we can contain if we don't start implementing controls and stopping fossil fuels companies from undermining those controls.

Fossil fuels miners also undermine the rise of alternative energy, which is not only cleaner but will eliminate one of the main sources of geopolitical instability and terrorist funding worldwide. Just think of all the military spending that goes into dealing with oil-funded crazies, not to mention the sheer chaos and suffering they cause.

Beyond that, fossil fuel miners get hold of the economy such that the bloke who wants a good job is trained in fossil fuels mining rather than developing skills in some less harmful industry, and is then forced to defend mining companies on Facebook because his mortgage and livelihood depends on them. People with pensions join him because they've indirectly invested in mining stocks, becoming free PR agents for these problem companies. In other words, these companies are like a giant toxic squid that has the nation by the kahunas.

Not to mention that in Australia, the miners are also responsible for funding campaigns to undermine responsible corporate taxation, thus limiting the funding local governments have to deal with bushfire fuel reduction, the very problem we're here discussing and others have witnessed first hand. The Coalition is a veritable revolving door of fossil fuel company lobbyists; the giant toxic squid is everywhere you care to look.

These are companies that instigate international war and regime change, distort economies and write the policies of the major parties, not local community clubs. In contrast, the Greens are virtually powerless. The two don't even invite comparison.

[KenH]

[Pi]

More firefighting aircraft might help a whole lot:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-15/are-bigger-water-bombers-the-answer-to-bushfire-woes/11705502

"This year, nine large helicopters and seven fixed-wing aircraft have been contracted from the northern hemisphere, but only half have arrived in time for NSW and Queensland's devastating fires."

We shouldn't be 'borrowing' stuff, it should be available as a permanent asset with local pilots who can fly the terrain blind folded.

Where do we get the funding?
right here!
https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/national/2018/10/28/former-prime-ministers-cost/

If I voted some lame ass out of office 30 years ago I shouldn't still be paying for it.

[watt price tully]

[stui magpie]

[think positive]

you can blame any corporation for the tax thing, why just coal miners? partly?
lets talk about partly.
partly to blame, choosing to live in the bush and not choosing to be prepared, there are guidelines, you only have to drive around and you can clearly see properties that are not following them. My sisters just removed a bunch of trees in order to pass council regulations to build their replacement house, which has been torn apart by a tornado and then another storm. that house was there for probably 60 plus years with trees far too close. Drive through the bush, along the coastal road, its ridiculous, round the back of Lorne, there are streets you would never get out of. Driving down the dirt track to their property their are massive branches overhanging, a truck that removed the debris from the storm could not get down there, how would fire trucks? the trees are on the council part of the road, so they are not allowed to cut them back.
Now lets talk about insurance. Dont drive a car unless you can afford to insure it, dont live in the boondocks unless you can afford the insurance, and dont build there unless you can afford to build to the required, or above the required BAL requirements. And no its not everyone, but its far too many.
Ive argued enough about the land preparation, fire roads, back burning, apparently it was too dry in winter, bullshit, find a way. they do up north. Im not going into the politics of it, i really dont give a **** which party says what, or whos fault it was. Who ever gets to make the call should be put in jail, and for Gods sake listen to the indigenous experts, who are crying out to be heard. Read the land. its not brain surgery. Stopping cows from free ranging in the national parks, worrying about wild flowers, and yes baby birds, they will find somewhere else to nest.

stop making excuses and be prepared.

my donations have gone to emergency services and animal rescue. They did not make the choices.

and for (mates with) sake, heed the warnings and get the hell out of there, NO-THING is worth dying for. NO-THING is worth the lives of the CFA etc trying to save you while you save your bricks and mortar, or your boat.

save the political one upmanship for later, right now, Go Koala Man!

[pietillidie]

^No real disagreement on the idiocy of building under eucalypts; it ought to be illegal. But whataboutery won't do where the giant toxic mining squid is concerned.

I think you've forgotten about the mineral wealth windfall tax, or whatever it was called, and efforts to implement an ETS or a carbon tax. Two taxes explicitly concerning fossil fuels mining, on top of the usual avoidance.

Moreover, most industries do not dump enormous toxic externalities on the country, and most industries are kept in line by much truer competitive market conditions. Mining relies first and foremost on intransparent deals with thugs, crooks, dictators and terrorists to secure land and mining rights, and undermine environmental law. It's a filthy industry in every sense of the word right across the world.

[stui magpie]

Without going off track, has anywhere actually implemented a robust ETS that isn't full of loopholes?

I don't trust any government of any flavour to do that, as soon as you allow offsets you create a cottage industry of shonks.

[pietillidie]

^There is a strong argument that you actually need to excite a cottage industry to get the momentum. Plenty of industries are legislative cottage industries, such as accounting, law and flight safety, and society is still somehow built on them.

The EU scheme seems to have gone okay. From what I can tell it's the first major global effort, so everyone is watching it. But if enough people are on board already a tax would probably suffice. Perhaps like any tax now it will need to be significantly transnational to work properly.

The windfall tax was simple enough, though, but the giant squid still managed to kill it off.

[stui magpie]

Sorry, I wasn't clear on the cottage industry.

When there's an opportunity to make good coin for little effort, such as setting up shonky carbon offset credits to sell, people do it and others will buy them.

Net impact means that polluters still pollute but can point to their offset credits (which have zero environmental impact) to show how well they're going.

[Wokko]

That's the shit Turnbull's kid was neck deep in while Daddy was pushing for carbon offsets and ETS. Climate economy is just a big wealth redistribution scam, from the middle class of Western nations to the wealthy elites and the 3rd world corruption factories.

[stui magpie]

Nice article in todays Aged.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/states-to-feel-federal-heat-over-hazard-reduction-burns-20200105-p53ozo.html?btis&fbclid=IwAR0eBP4zC6rOVL09RuntLv7y3MMPS8awBQ5LlNbIvmrFH7yXRVUCZmOkJF4

Few selected snippets