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3.14159 
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| David wrote: | | Given it’s my partner’s homeland that is being discussed here, I am both well-versed on the situation and emotionally invested in wanting the conflict to end, yet I have to say I’m deeply ambivalent as to whether Ukraine gets more American Javelin missiles or not. Zelinsky was elected on, among other things, the promise of finding a diplomatic solution to the Russian-backed artificial civil war, which has already dragged on way too long and caused too much suffering, and I hope that he can still achieve that. How many missiles does he need to bring the Donetsk rebel forces to the table, exactly? Is an unending flow of American arms merely perpetuating a "just" but unwinnable conflict? These are questions that, I think, are being overlooked in the back and forth about this impeachment sideshow (which I’m still inclined to view as being a waste of time and energy, much as Russiagate was). |
Firstly, yes, lets leave your missus nationality out of it
Secondly, why would Ukraine need the most advanced (and over-priced) anti-tank weapon if it was only facing rebels from Donetsk?
Is there an advanced tank manufacturing plant there?
Ockums razor would tell you that those weapons are coming from a country that actually makes the most advanced Russian tanks, namely Russia!
Are these missiles to be used in attack to needlessly prolong the War?
When they applied for these missiles Ukraina had to promise not to use them in an attacking role and limit their deployment to defending units already in place. Thats why when they're are mentioned they are called lethal defence weapons under the conditions of sale!) Google it if you don't believe men!
Monika Zelinsky was elected (amongst other things*) to bring the Russians to the table but without the bargaining chip of continued US support and the defensive weapons needed to stop further incursions into Ukraine territory he might as well go there with his fly unzipped and a T-shirt that says ... Позволяет вам и мне вырезать эту колбасу!
That is NOT the scenario he was elected to pursue!
*He was also elected to open the Black Ledger books that were hidden by the prev pres. You know the ones that detailed Russian cash going to the Ukrainian government officials and business identities. These books were quietly shelved just before the first delivery of missiles as what the dropping of charges against Trump campaign manager Paul Manaforte and the official announcement that Ukrain would cease co-operation with the Mueller Investigation! Monforte was arrest on return to the US for (amongst other thinks) violations relating to his non-disclosure of Russia connections and the charges already detailed in the Black Ledger, as are several former Trump campaign workers and associates! To the best of anyone's knowledge, neither Hunter nor Joe Biden are mentioned in those Ledgers!
| David wrote: |
On the other hand, there are many people in the US at the moment, Democrat and Republican alike – let’s call them "war hawks" – who see Ukraine as nothing more than a playground in which to fight Russia in a Cold War 2.0, and who talk a great deal about Ukrainian sovereignty without, I think, caring all that much about the actual well-being of the populace; look up anything John Bolton has said on the conflict as a case in point. |
(Trump often says "many people say" just before a tells a whopper but that's another story and I'm not going to pull you up on it)
Sorry to correct you on such a small point but I'm pretty sure it was Sondland that said Trump does not care about Ukrain, all he cares about is digging dirt on Biden.
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/gordon-sondland-flaunted-access-to-trump-ukraine-investigation-2019-11?r=US&IR=T
| david wrote: |
So while his blackmail of Zelenskyy is reprehensible and quite possibly impeachable
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Possibly?
When the US Constitution was being written they thought long a hard about adding an impeachment clause. Some argued the ballot was the proper place to deal with maladministration. Ben Franklin, the founder of the GOP thought about and said"the only time impeachment should be necessary is if a President was directly soliciting foreign aid to win an election or substantial evidence that the Pres' was in the pay of a foreign leader or Gov and acts of treason.
He also added that that scenario was very unlikely to happen but he saw it as an inoffensive clause and was happy to sign it into the Constitution.
Not only is Trump seriously accused of this it makes you wonder what Franklin (again founder of the GOP) would have thought about Clintons attempted impeachment for lying about an extra-marital affair?
https://prospect.org/impeachment/would-the-founding-fathers-impeach-trump/
Alexander Hamilton called the “desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils.“ Or as James Madison put it, protect the new country from a president who’d "betray his trust to foreign powers.” Gouverneur Morris of Pennsylvania, who initially had opposed including an impeachment clause, agreed to include it in order to avoid “the danger of seeing the first Magistrate in foreign pay.” During the Virginia ratifying convention, Edmund Randolph explicitly connected impeachment to foreign money, saying that a president “may be impeached” if discovered “receiving emoluments [help] from foreign powers.” George Washington, in his farewell address, warned of “the insidious wiles of foreign influence.”
You don’t have to be a so-called “originalist,” interpreting the Constitution according to what the founders were trying to do at the time, in order to see how dangerous it is to allow a president to seek help in an election from a foreign power.
If a president can invite a foreign power to influence the outcome of an election, there’s no limit to how far foreign powers might go to curry favour with a president by helping to take down his rivals. That would be the end of democracy as we know it.
Still want to argue whether or not impeachment is warranted or appropriate?
| david wrote: | I’m also sceptical of any arguments about the moral necessity of US arms funding here.
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Ukraine is tiny compared to Russia.
Russia has launched an invasion of a US ally and the US is duty and morally -bound to lend assistance if it was to maintain any credibility on wo9rld affairs...what am I saying, I need a drink...
Anyone want to join me for a Novochok cock-tail while we celebrate the fall of NATO the retreat of the US foreign Influence and the dis-banding of the EU? ...HIC....arrgh!
| btw wrote: |
(By the way, not to make this Chomsky clips at twenty paces, |
Wel then DON'T!
I only mentioned Chomsky's musings on the then-nascent Trump to remind you that I was brought up in a house decorated (wall to ceiling) with quality books on a variety of serious subjects. Many of these books I read before I finished Primary School!
You've worked at my mothers bookstore so should have remembered that!
Last edited by 3.14159 on Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:20 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| 3.14159 wrote: | | I only mentioned Chomsky's musings on the then nascent Trump to remind you that I was brought up in a house decorated (wall to ceiling) with quality books on a variety of serious subjects. Many of these books I read before I finished Primary School! |
OK, so my partner's Ukrainian heritage and personal connections (and the various insights that has given me, along with blow-by-blow information from on-the-ground bloggers and journalists about Maidan and the ensuing civil war long before most people here in Australia were taking any interest) is to be dismissed, but your primary-school consumption of Chomsky isn't?  Perhaps if you weren't so quick to dismiss that part of my post, you'd realise that I'm already fully aware that the eastern rebels are directly funded and armed (and, in some cases, literally embodied) by the Russian army. You'd also be aware that I have been staunchly against that invasion from day one and supportive of Ukrainian sovereignty, and posted my views on those topics here accordingly. So a lot of your post is little more than, to coin a term, Ukraine-splaining. 
I don't question at all that US arms funding makes Ukraine's negotiating position stronger. It also, unfortunately, makes them a bargaining chip between two major powers and hurts their own independence (as the very topic we're discussing, the use of a weapons deal as a carrot to investigate a political rival, shows). Sadly, this is the reality of the world – if you're a small-to-medium power, the question is not whether you're going to be a client state; it's often whose client state you're going to be. It's an unenviable position, but, as I said, I'm deeply ambivalent about the notion that the US is benefiting anybody by injecting itself into these conflicts. It always comes with a price.
Incidentally, that's what makes all the high-minded talk about the US constitution seem so absurd to me. It has absolutely no connection to the world we live in, in which what Washington refers to as "the insidious wiles of foreign influence" has not only been utterly normalised around the globe, but the US itself is one of the biggest perpetrators. Do you think our politics is in any sense free of America's influence? And if you acknowledge it isn't, why the hell do you care about the notion that Trump's man-crush on Putin might – might – be shifting the United States' foreign policy in certain limited ways? Even if Russia had actually rigged the election (which they didn't), the US would only be reaping some long-overdue karma. As far as I can tell, nothing remotely like that has taken place. (Also, I'm not sure how Franklin could have founded the Republican Party given he died 64 years before it came into existence, lol!)
If it were possible to completely depoliticise the conversation about Trump's impeachment, then I think you'd have to have both a pretty firm understanding of American law (including as to how it relates to the limits of legitimate presidential actions) and the precise details of what Trump did and said and what threshold of wrongdoing they actually meet. For me, it's clear that what he was trying to do was dodgy, self-serving and not in the national interest. But that leaves a lot of questions hanging, and as far as I can tell they're still mostly unresolved. So I find a lot of the impeachment discussion just kind of arcane and uninteresting, and it doesn't help that the outcome is already so clearly ordained. So have fun, I guess, but I doubt you'll be able to convince me that this is an issue of gravity in a world in which so much genuine suffering and corruption persists.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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firstly I thought we agreed we weren't going to mention your family?
secondly, when I grew up we didn't have smartphones, computers/games tablets or for even TVs for a while so I would read and I would read whatever was @hand.
That said, pardon the Krain splain but when you ask questions like ..."How many missiles does he need to bring the Donetsk rebel forces to the table, exactly?" or state that"Zeleniski was elected to get to the negotiating table ASAP" but fail to mention his anti-corruption promises, (one of which was to re-open the Black Ledger prosecutions) I think it is my duty to answer the question posed or present an alternate view to your one0sided statements.
for instance...
Only when I pressed you did you add that yes, the Rebels are in possession of advanced Russian tanks missiles, and troops. I'd add Russian Intel and Cyber-warfare units, funding and false flag attacks...
and yes he does need to get the Ukrainian the best deal he can and get some anti-corruption runs on the board (despite the President demanding he open 2 false inquiries that are riddled with fresh new corruption.
anyway, I will continue to pull you up when you are less than open with the facts, ...despite your vaunted Kyiv Street Cred!
That said..I feel Russia has a very real and legitimate claim to the Crimea and the West's failure to address those claims are the root of this conflict!
Last edited by 3.14159 on Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:05 pm; edited 9 times in total |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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If what you say is true and there is nothing to hide and the Mueller report totally exonerates him, why did Trump refuse to release documents, why refuse to allow testimony from certain white-house staff, why the secrecy, where is the full report and why has Barr stored it away under lock and key and refused court orders to release the full unredacted report, even in secret?
Even in Barr's 4 page summary (of the 448-page report), Mueller specifically said he had been given advice from the State Department that the President couldn't be charged while he was in office and he was adhering to that advice by not bringing any charges. He also said...that President Trump was NOT exonerated!
He also went on to say...
"Over the course of my career, I have seen a number of challenges to our democracy. The Russian government's effort to interfere in our election is among the most serious," he said.
He added: "Much more needs to be done in order to protect against this intrusion, by the Russians but others as well."
...
Trumps now done a double backflip to his original claim that Russia didn't hack the election ("Why would they?") and at the same time tries to blackmail President Monika Zeletsky to publically announce an investigation into the discredited Conspiracy theory that Ukrain was responsible.
| The Real Donald Trump wrote: | He looked me in the eye and told me very forcefully that he didn't hack the election, and I believe him!!! Why would Russia hack the election???
...(.and then a day later) "When I said "why would Russia hack the election what I meant was "why wouldn't Russia hack the election"?
FAKE NEWS Media! The Enemy of the People! |
Even in Barr's 4 page summary (of the 448-page report), he informs us Mueller specifically said he had been given advice from the State Department that the President couldn't be charged while he was in office and he was adhering to that advice by not bringing any charges. He also said...that President Trump was NOT exonerated!
He also went on to say...
"Over the course of my career, I have seen a number of challenges to our democracy. The Russian government's effort to interfere in our election is among the most serious," he said.
He added: "Much more needs to be done in order to protect against this intrusion, by the Russians but others as well."
Trump now continues to claim Russia didn't hack the election (why would they) and at the same time tries to blackmail President Monika Zeletsky to publically announce an investigation into the discredited Conspiracy theory that Ukrain was responsible.
| The Real Donald Trump wrote: | He looked me in the eye and told me very forcefully that he didn't hack the election, and I believe him!!! Why would Russia hack the election???
...(.and then a day later) "When I said "why would Russia hack the election what I meant was "why wouldn't Russia hack the election"?
FAKE NEWS Media! |
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49100778
I could also add,...If Trump and Co were totally exonerated why do so many Trump Campagne members keep getting arrested charged and sentenced?
Last edited by 3.14159 on Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:03 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| That last graphic is completely and absolutely wrong. Stone was charged. He is now found guilty and will shortly be sentenced. |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Wake me when it's time to collect my $100
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | That last graphic is completely and absolutely wrong. Stone was charged. He is now found guilty and will shortly be sentenced. |
t's difficult keeping an accurate running count of the number of Trump associates arrested, charged, convicted and jailed!
...after more than 4 decades, Tricky Dick Nixon's "Official Dirty Trickster" is finally going to jail
Last edited by 3.14159 on Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Wake me when it's time to collect my $100 |
Rest assured on that day if Telecom somehow fails to send the reminder telegram to your pager I'll be around with a bucket of iced water
Last edited by 3.14159 on Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:49 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Ta for that, the old dears in OAS were always good value.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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And yet another Never Trumper, who was conveniently sitting at the table when Sondland called the POS on his personal phone says he took notes as this breach of National Security conversation took place.
The Drumpf POS has denied any knowledge of this call!
With at least 2 of the 3 mobile TeleCo's in Kiev belonging to Russia no doubt Putin knows exactly what was said or if Trump was the person on the other end of this call!
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/18/politics/david-hale-holmes-transcripts-released/index.html
David Holmes, the political adviser at the embassy, said he was taken aback both by the conversation he overheard and the woeful lack of operational security demonstrated by Sondland, the US ambassador to the European Union.
"This was an extremely distinctive experience in my foreign service career," Holmes said. "I've never seen anything like this, someone calling the President from a mobile phone at a restaurant, and then having a conversation of this level of candour, colourful language. There's just so much about the call that was so remarkable that I remember it vividly."
This week's schedule of public impeachment hearings
This week's schedule of public impeachment hearings
Holmes also provided lawmakers with more details about what happened after the US security aid money was released on September 11, saying there was a belief that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky was going to follow through with a CNN interview to announce the investigations once the money was unfrozen.
"We worried that the hold was lifted after Zelensky potentially gave a commitment to do the interview," Holmes said.
"So you were concerned that Zelensky had already made the commitment in order to get the aid, get the meeting," asked House Intelligence Chairman Adam Schiff, a Democrat from California.
"Yes," Holmes responded.
Last edited by 3.14159 on Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:48 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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and as for the President, God bless his Heart!
Who else* could have a 55% lead in the N-Orleans polls and then lose 49% to 51%!
So desperate to win held 2 Jingoistic Drumpf Rallies where he beseeched his Clans saying...
“So, Trump took a loss. So you got to give me a big win, please. OK? OK?”
*Rhetorical question, Vice Pres 1/ Pence also hosted a rally as did POS Jnr!
https://democraticgovernors.org/news/god-bless-his-heart-roundup-trump-went-all-in-came-up-empty-in-louisiana/
Last edited by 3.14159 on Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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I can't wait for the Netflix mini series, all we need is a dwarf, some incest, dragons and white walkers
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Is James Earl Jones available to do Trump’s voice, again? |
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