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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | And at the end of the day, it boils down to this.
The Jews have one place to call their own. The Muslims have many.
All the bullshit about the poor Palestinians would result in the Muslims having many plus 1 more and the Jews having zero.
How bout just phuck off and let them have their small piece of dirt. |
Most reasonable people support a two-state solution and have done so for a long time. That has nothing to do with denying Israel’s right to exist. Israel has its territory; it doesn’t need the West Bank (and if they want it so badly, they should be prepared to treat the people who live there as equal citizens). As it is, the country is effectively an Apartheid state, and people like Netanyahu are doing their best to keep it that way.
And speaking of Apartheid, try this on for comparison: "The whites have one place in Africa to call their own. Black Africans have many. How about just phuck off and let white South Africans have their own piece of dirt?" Doesn’t sound great, does it?
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Stupid comparison. Really stupid.
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ It actually really isn't – there are a lot of parallels there. But go on, explain why you think it's such a fundamentally different situation and why the comparison doesn't even deserve to be entertained.
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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The Whites don't have one place in Africa, they're all over the continent and the Black people don't want to kill them for being white.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Tell that to all the dead white farmers in SA and Zimbabwe.
South Africa is a lot different to Australia and Israel, the black Bantu speaking people mostly came after the whites and are as guilty of displacing the indigenous people (Bushmen etc) as whites are.
Also, Israelis displaced the British through terrorism. Ironic, sure, but the place was not ruled by the Arabs when the Jews took over. |
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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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| Wokko wrote: | Tell that to all the dead white farmers in SA and Zimbabwe.
South Africa is a lot different to Australia and Israel, the black Bantu speaking people mostly came after the whites and are as guilty of displacing the indigenous people (Bushmen etc) as whites are.
Also, Israelis displaced the British through terrorism. Ironic, sure, but the place was not ruled by the Arabs when the Jews took over. |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_bDc7FfItk
But they don't count, they're 'privileged' 
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | | The Whites don't have one place in Africa, they're all over the continent and the Black people don't want to kill them for being white. |
Not quite sure I’d say "all over the continent” – there are an estimated 6 million white people in Africa, 5 million of whom live in South Africa. The remaining population make up under 0.1% of the total population of African countries, which numbers 1.5 billion in total excluding South Africa. In contrast, 50,000 Jews still live in the Middle East excluding Israel (needless to say, there are much higher Jewish populations elsewhere in the world).
So while we’re talking different proportions and different situations regarding oppression in Israel and Apartheid-era South Africa, you’re looking at countries with a lot of parallels, i.e. an ethnocultural regional minority embracing an Apartheid policy to preserve their own dominance in a national setting. Similar fears would have aided the maintenance of both situations, and indeed some Jewish Israelis may well look at post-Apartheid South Africa, a country now politically and demographically dominated by the oppressed group, as a fate to avoid at all costs.
But the inconvenient problem remains that Apartheid is a brutal act of injustice, one that no human should actually have to endure, and that you can’t treat people like shit forever and hope that it’ll work out okay. That goes too for rhetoric like "why don’t they just f off" from their ancestral homelands and go live in a Jordanian refugee camp for the next 20 years. (The irony is that most of the people here who would ask Palestinians to voluntarily become refugees would be the last to actually accept the validity of their refugee status if they wanted to come here. Dehumanisation is funny that way.)
Israel’s main problem right now is that it is run by vandals who don’t care a jot about peace, who are undermining their own country’s long-term future and who are perfectly happy for innocent Israelis to die and for cycles of violence and revenge to continue through the generations so long as their own power remains entrenched and unchallenged. There’s one word for them: traitors. I hope that someone better can come along to replace Netanyahu – I’m not sure Gantz is it – but when they do, they’ll have a lot of damage to undo.
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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Even as he sends thousands of troops to defend poor old...Saudi Arabia:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-50021138
| BBC wrote: | You would be forgiven for feeling confused about President Trump's attitude to US military deployments in the Middle East.
At one point in the past few days he was tweeting about the "trillions of dollars" that America had wasted on "endless wars" in the region and vowing that the US would "back out" of Middle East conflicts.
Yet here we are with a further 3,000 service personnel and a bunch of hardware heading for Saudi Arabia and the region - making a net 17,000 increase in troop numbers since May.
So unquestionably the rhetoric and the reality are in conflict. |
The rhetoric, like everything that comes out of the deranged narcissist's mouth, was always lies.
Imagine throwing a vulnerable group of allies to the wolves on an isolationist pretext even as you send an additional 3000 troops and god knows how much in equipment, for a reported total of anything from 10,000 - 17,000 deployments since May (the reports vary), to the sufficiently affluent authoritarian terrorist and pollution factory Saudi Arabia.
Oh that's right, the Kurds have nothing to offer the Trump family, Trump re-election campaign and Trump cronies, and offer poor photo opportunities.
You have to shudder when you think of the psychiatry of what we're dealing with here.
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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Stabbed in the back. Again!
Sadly predictable move by Trump and the United States.
For a layperson like myself the Kurdish people always appear to live under a more moderate interpretation of the Quran and it's something the West should seek to protect and encourage to prosper.
It's certainly far more enlightened than the Islamic doctrine of Wahhabism that you'll find being implemented on the Saudi Arabian people by it's leaders.
To the uninformed this is a version of Islam that the teachings of ISIS closely resemble.
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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They're absolutely a beacon of light (in terms of liberalism and democracy) in the region), although we shouldn't romanticise them – there is plenty of squabbling between age-old tribal rivals in Kurdish regions, and the YPG have committed terrorist acts in Turkey (there have also been reports of reprisals against Arab civilians in areas liberated from ISIS). But they deserve autonomy, and it is crucial that they be protected from the hostile powers on each side that would eradicate them or bring them under their yoke.
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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Trump did the right thing to withdraw troops.
The US has to stop being the world policeman and being involved in the Middle East. Their presence in the region over the last 20 years has only caused chaos and destruction.
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Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
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| swoop42 wrote: | Stabbed in the back. Again!
Sadly predictable move by Trump and the United States. |
How much longer do you want the US occupying Syria?
It's a never ending war.
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
The middle east is a never ending basket case.
What would happen if the West just decided to butt out and leave them to it?
Would another version of ISIS rise up?
Would they all just destroy what's left?
I assume a lot of people would die, but a lot of people died when the west tried to help. When the west intervenes it's criticised, when it withdraws it's criticised.
There's some extremely wealthy countries there, they can provide aid if required. Is it time to just say sort it out yourselves ?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Jezza wrote: | | swoop42 wrote: | Stabbed in the back. Again!
Sadly predictable move by Trump and the United States. |
How much longer do you want the US occupying Syria?
It's a never ending war. |
No, pathetic defence. Even worse than the arguments offered for invading Afghanistan and Iraq.
If you want to hand over the responsibility of protecting the vulnerable, stop white anting the UN and start supporting them in the role everyone sane has wanted them to take over from the US for decades now.
And to say that as he spends hundreds of millions (billions?) needlessly supporting Saudi Arabia is farcical.
There is no list of talking points that can magically transform this horror. There is no fudging and no moral complexity about it: Trump and his vile cronies were warned a bloodbath would ensue, just as George W. was warned that the Coalition of the Willing would not be welcomed in complex multi-party environments they knew nothing about, and only chaos would ensue.
The corrupt dealings involved in George W's callous decisions have long been exposed; Trump's corrupt dealings are being exposed by the minute. But even if you try to hold back the tide by denying those, the Saudi Arabia troops, a mere five minutes after the Kurd abandonment, are indisputable public fact. 'Tiring of endless war' is an outright lie.
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