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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| stui magpie wrote: | I will pick you up on the Japan/Korea one though as you've misread my intention.
Korea was removed from Japan in that it was taken off them, out of their control. It was considered their possession, it was removed from them. Now that may have had the effect of removing Japanese influence and people from Korea, but my statement remains true, |
I knew what you meant, but your wording was sloppy in a manner which would incense Koreans, something we've just discussed.
Your casual dismissal of the rights of the inhabitants of Palestine on the basis of the shifting sands of time is similarly sloppy, as if you'd be all good if the shoe was on the other foot. Midnight Oil might write a song one day about your own continuity of possession 
This is what I mean about dismissing and minimising remote happenings from the comforts of one's living room. It's human enough, but once you're aware of that the idea is surely to aim for an intellectual fairness.
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Wokko wrote: | | Palestine is the Holy Land and should be returned to the Crusader Orders immediately. |
Shoe, other foot, etc.
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | | Not quite. The creation of Israel required the forcible evacuation of the substantial Palestinian population ......). |
Language David language.
The creation of the State of Israel did not require any forced evacuation of anybody.
After the independent state of Israel was created in 1948 alongside a state for Arabs (neither to be exclusive of ethnic populations) the Arabs rejected the United Nations declaration / vote. The neighbouring Arabs chose war. They lost, as they did in 1948, 1967 & 1973.
In the 1948 war, it is true that Arabs were forcibly evicted (most), were encouraged to leave by their own and left on their own volition (least)
Arabs we now call Palestinian, were not forcibly removed as a ”requirement”. That simple misuse of language serves to obfuscate & distort history especially a war started by the Arabs.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman
Last edited by watt price tully on Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:18 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Nice work WPT.
It is interesting how history can be distorted to suit people's beliefs.
And Ptiddy, The Aboriginals have over 50,000 years of continuous possession of this Island compared to a few hundred for those who are now called "Palestinians" so you can guess which case I think has merit.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
Nice work WPT.
It is interesting how history can be distorted to suit people's beliefs.
And Ptiddy, The Aboriginals have over 50,000 years of continuous possession of this Island compared to a few hundred for those who are now called "Palestinians" so you can guess which case I think has merit. |
The point was about empathy and fairness given your own lack of continuity of possession in contrast to indigenous Australians. That went through to the keeper, apparently.
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Yeah, well the point is moot as WPT has qualified that no one was dispossessed.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| watt price tully wrote: | | David wrote: | | Not quite. The creation of Israel required the forcible evacuation of the substantial Palestinian population ......). |
Language David language.
The creation of the State of Israel did not require any forced evacuation of anybody.
After the independent state of Israel was created in 1948 alongside a state for Arabs (neither to be exclusive of ethnic populations) the Arabs rejected the United Nations declaration / vote. The neighbouring Arabs chose war. They lost, as they did in 1948, 1967 & 1973.
In the 1948 war, it is true that Arabs were forcibly evicted (most), were encouraged to leave by their own and left on their own volition (least)
Arabs we now call Palestinian, were not forcibly removed as a ”requirement”. That simple misuse of language serves to obfuscate & distort history especially a war started by the Arabs. |
It doesn't start and end with the war, though. Partition (and the Balfour Declaration before it and everything in between) was vehemently opposed by most of the parties concerned. You can't act against the will of relevant parties through god-like interdicts and expect other than war — the very expectation is a colonial patronisation. Any 'fair' provisions that are imposed in such a context are an oxymoron.
So, no one can cry foul at the outbreak of war here, as if anyone expected otherwise; there were uprisings and revolts following every British political intervention on this from something like 1915. That the Ottomans had been similarly imperialistic only serves to underscore the carelessness of empire.
People don't flee or abandon their homes and communities for the pleasure of it. The 'bad friends, bad information' thesis is just more colonial patronisation, casting Palestinians as clueless dimwits.
I fully accept Israel's need for a stable, protected state, and I obviously accept its roots in Palestine. But I also accept both parties' claims on this, and the depiction of Palestinians as losers and dunces does nothing to enhance the moral claim. There are two perspectives existing simultaneously that warrant understanding here, and there was no righteous British umpire orchestrating affairs in sanctity and purity. That the aetiology of Israel is an ugly one is as it is; there is no dressing it up. But this applies to most nations on earth and is hardly a novel aftermath of colonial British interference.
Sometimes, both groups really are right and warrant empathy, despite their hacks and hawks. One can wish things were different, but they're not.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| watt price tully wrote: | | In the 1948 war, it is true that Arabs were forcibly evicted (most), were encouraged to leave by their own and left on their own volition (least) |
| stui magpie wrote: | | Yeah, well the point is moot as WPT has qualified that no one was dispossessed. |
Are we reading the same thing? A bit of basic history is in order, methinks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus
| Quote: | | The 1948 Palestinian exodus, also known as the Nakba (Arabic: النكبة, al-Nakbah, literally "disaster", "catastrophe", or "cataclysm"), occurred when more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs — about half of prewar Palestine's Arab population — fled or were expelled from their homes, during the 1948 Palestine war. Between 400 and 600 Palestinian villages were sacked during the war, while urban Palestine was almost entirely extinguished. |
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Who started the war?
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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Again, back to Trump, the abandonment of the Kurds lacks any justification, idiotic references to Normandy and populist drivel about war notwithstanding. The only respectable response in an inextricably-linked world is to accept complexity, maintain multilateral perspective, protect the vulnerable where necessary, and wedge against the corrupt abuse of war from without and within. Those who critique the inevitable difficulty and imperfection of this endeavour are opportunistic moral gnats.
In order to maintain a pretence for the benefit of himself, Trump has abandoned a vulnerable group even as he signs off on arms sales, environmental destruction, deals with oppressors, and other interventions with gay abandon. But we already knew he was a fraudulent amoral grandiose narcissist well beyond the norm of the average shabby politician.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
Who started the war? |
The callous, remote colonials who in their usual custom made god-like decisions without consideration of three decades of forthright vehement opposition, an open, clearly-stated threat of war on the implementation of such actions, and above all real lives, perspectives and emotions beyond the colonial ivory tower.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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And at the end of the day, it boils down to this.
The Jews have one place to call their own. The Muslims have many.
All the bullshit about the poor Palestinians would result in the Muslims having many plus 1 more and the Jews having zero.
How bout just phuck off and let them have their small piece of dirt.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| stui magpie wrote: | And at the end of the day, it boils down to this.
The Jews have one place to call their own. The Muslims have many.
All the bullshit about the poor Palestinians would result in the Muslims having many plus 1 more and the Jews having zero.
How bout just phuck off and let them have their small piece of dirt. |
If Palestinian identity could be defined as all and only Arabic, and Arabic identity were all and only Muslim, and Islam were a monolithic entity and single political party governing a single territory in which all Muslims wanted to live with disregard to history, location, family and conception since birth, and indeed would be welcomed with open arms, I might be inclined to agree. But you're whitewashing from the sofa again because that isn't the actual reality. There is no quick pain relief here.
By the same token, don't get me wrong: those who would deny Israel, and fail to empathise with the Jewish need and human right for a peaceful, safe state in a land to which it has historical claims, deserve utmost condemnation. But the fundamentalism of others is surely no excuse for our own convenient abandonment of fairness. Few, including the now exposed Kurds, are as fortunate as ourselves by reason of fate and fortune alone. The golden rule ultimately benefits us all — if people have the discipline to resist impulse and stick with it. This includes standing by both Israelis and Palestinians, despite the extremes and annoying asses.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | In the 1948 war, it is true that Arabs were forcibly evicted (most), were encouraged to leave by their own and left on their own volition (least) |
| stui magpie wrote: | | Yeah, well the point is moot as WPT has qualified that no one was dispossessed. |
Are we reading the same thing? A bit of basic history is in order, methinks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus
| Quote: | | The 1948 Palestinian exodus, also known as the Nakba (Arabic: النكبة, al-Nakbah, literally "disaster", "catastrophe", or "cataclysm"), occurred when more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs — about half of prewar Palestine's Arab population — fled or were expelled from their homes, during the 1948 Palestine war. Between 400 and 600 Palestinian villages were sacked during the war, while urban Palestine was almost entirely extinguished. |
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There is no doubt that Arabs that is Palestinian Arabs mostly were forcibly removed during a war basically started by Arab nationalist rejectionists. My issue was with the word you used earlier that is "required" it was never required but it did occur of that there cannot be any argument. However it occurred in a context of an existential war.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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It wouldn't matter what they had or where they camped, they're all nut jobs and will keep on fighting until the end of time.
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Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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