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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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There's a time and a place to bring up grievances and immediately following a terrorist massacre isn't it. I thought the same thing about Anning, even if what he and Milo said is 100% correct it's just crass to push it right now. |
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Pi
Joined: 13 Feb 2006 Location: SA
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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Cam wrote: | People are radicalised by hate speech. Doesn't matter what colour or creed they are. It's hate speech that needs to be eliminated. 'Fighting back' means you just become what you are hating in the first place, a killer of innocents, a terror creator, a terror-ist. |
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Yes - and Nick's is making its own small contribution to that process. .... The Mods need to take a good hard look, lest the Feds ban this site. |
Who defines hate speech? Is criticism of islam hate speech?
You may answer "no" but I'm sure there are plenty of people who would say "yes". Who decides?
Is saying women and men are different hate speech?
You may answer "no" but I'm sure there are people in the trans community who would say "yes". Who decides? |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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David wrote: | "Interesting" only to people like Milo Yiannopoulos who want to distract from (and possibly even give covert support to) the brutal slaughter of innocent people by a right-wing maniac.
(For those who can't be bothered reading the link, there's an unproven claim that one of the mosques that were targeted may have been involved in radicalisation years ago, but it was strenuously denied at the time and there is no clear evidence that it was the case. Guess why it's being shared now?) |
thats just so wrong.
Innocent people are dead. right now thats all that matters... _________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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Wokko wrote: | I thought the same thing about Anning, even if what he and Milo said is 100% correct .... |
But it isn't. What they said is so devoid of logic that it isn't worthy of consideration. It's 100% stupid. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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Yeah, it is a good article. Some food for thought in there for everyone I think. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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From that article:
"The suspect, a white man in his late 20s, took two years to plan the killings, but laid out in his "manifesto" the six years of reading, travelling, thinking and conversing with other racists that led to his decision to kill Muslims. The manifesto reads like a new version of Mein Kampf. Nazism is alive in our midst and we must be vigilant against it." |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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Pies4shaw wrote: | Wokko wrote: | I thought the same thing about Anning, even if what he and Milo said is 100% correct .... |
But it isn't. What they said is so devoid of logic that it isn't worthy of consideration. It's 100% stupid. |
I have no idea who said or says what, I don't care that much to be honest cause it just goes on and on and doesn't change a bloody thing - frankly I'm more concerned with Botswana talking about reintroducing elephant hunting
But in my very simplistic view it seems that one side just yell you're wrong, youre stupid, you're a racist, you are islamophobic etc and all that does is make those who hold different views IMHO mainly due to ignorance and an unfounded fear become more combative and resistant to any education that may possibly change their views and then they retort with leftards etc.
And sorry but those yelling racist etc etc seem to be the most intolerant of any opinion other than own - even condoning a politician ( albeit a nasty piece of work) having an egg smashed into his head by a young man from behind because they don't like said politician or what he said. I seriously doubt they would be celebrating him if he had done such a thing to a politician they agreed with - hypocrites much! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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Morrigu wrote: | Pies4shaw wrote: | Wokko wrote: | I thought the same thing about Anning, even if what he and Milo said is 100% correct .... |
But it isn't. What they said is so devoid of logic that it isn't worthy of consideration. It's 100% stupid. |
I have no idea who said or says what, I don't care that much to be honest cause it just goes on and on and doesn't change a bloody thing - frankly I'm more concerned with Botswana talking about reintroducing elephant hunting
But in my very simplistic view it seems that one side just yell you're wrong, youre stupid, you're a racist, you are islamophobic etc and all that does is make those who hold different views IMHO mainly due to ignorance and an unfounded fear become more combative and resistant to any education that may possibly change their views and then they retort with leftards etc.
And sorry but those yelling racist etc etc seem to be the most intolerant of any opinion other than own - even condoning a politician ( albeit a nasty piece of work) having an egg smashed into his head by a young man from behind because they don't like said politician or what he said. I seriously doubt they would be celebrating him if he had done such a thing to a politician they agreed with - hypocrites much! |
Oh gawd, I agree 100% with that.
Please come back and post more often..
There's so very few places where actual debate can be held on social media. So many people are fixed in their mindset and utterly intolerant of dissenting views, it's either echo chambers of like minds or pile on the insults with little between and yes, the insults only feed that thing being insulted. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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stui magpie wrote: | Morrigu wrote: | Pies4shaw wrote: | Wokko wrote: | I thought the same thing about Anning, even if what he and Milo said is 100% correct .... |
But it isn't. What they said is so devoid of logic that it isn't worthy of consideration. It's 100% stupid. |
I have no idea who said or says what, I don't care that much to be honest cause it just goes on and on and doesn't change a bloody thing - frankly I'm more concerned with Botswana talking about reintroducing elephant hunting
But in my very simplistic view it seems that one side just yell you're wrong, youre stupid, you're a racist, you are islamophobic etc and all that does is make those who hold different views IMHO mainly due to ignorance and an unfounded fear become more combative and resistant to any education that may possibly change their views and then they retort with leftards etc.
And sorry but those yelling racist etc etc seem to be the most intolerant of any opinion other than own - even condoning a politician ( albeit a nasty piece of work) having an egg smashed into his head by a young man from behind because they don't like said politician or what he said. I seriously doubt they would be celebrating him if he had done such a thing to a politician they agreed with - hypocrites much! |
Oh gawd, I agree 100% with that.
Please come back and post more often..
There's so very few places where actual debate can be held on social media. So many people are fixed in their mindset and utterly intolerant of dissenting views, it's either echo chambers of like minds or pile on the insults with little between and yes, the insults only feed that thing being insulted. |
I'm very tolerant of others' views, I just don't like neo-Nazis, ethno-nationalists or white-supremacists. They are not fit to participate in our polity and the sooner they are (both figuratively and actually) quashed, the better. |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Pies4shaw wrote: |
I'm very tolerant of others' views, I just don't like neo-Nazis, ethno-nationalists or white-supremacists. They are not fit to participate in our polity and the sooner they are (both figuratively and actually) quashed, the better. |
No you're not and if you try and censor those people rather than defeat their ideas in the public square then all you do is drive them underground, legitimise them in far too many minds and radicalize them. Forgive the pop culture reference but this quote from Game of Thrones is apt “When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say.” |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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Wokko wrote: | Pies4shaw wrote: |
I'm very tolerant of others' views, I just don't like neo-Nazis, ethno-nationalists or white-supremacists. They are not fit to participate in our polity and the sooner they are (both figuratively and actually) quashed, the better. |
No you're not and if you try and censor those people rather than defeat their ideas in the public square then all you do is drive them underground, legitimise them in far too many minds and radicalize them. Forgive the pop culture reference but this quote from Game of Thrones is apt “When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say.” |
That's probably right, if you're actually tearing out someone's tongue. "Well, mister, we don't see much of that in these parts."
And, "Oh, yes I am" (cue wokko's pantomime horse to enter from stage left). |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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Here's the answer to "free speech", of course. Speech is not "free":
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/18/christchurch-islamophobes-media-anti-muslim
If you have been paying attention, you will know that there is now a genre of response protocol that is followed after attacks on Muslims. It blows dog-whistles even as carnage is unfolding. A ghoulish routine has become established. It usually goes like this. Condemn the attack in the strongest terms, and then water down that condemnation. We mustn’t get carried away, you see, and forget about the context. Attacks against Muslims must not stop us from continuing to criticise Islam and Muslims when it is warranted. The unvoiced subtext is that maybe these particular Muslim victims didn’t have it coming, but such atrocities don’t come out of nowhere. But, you know, thoughts and prayers at this difficult time.
Following the Christchurch massacre, there is an article I could write today to explain the danger of this forked-tongue response. An article that exposes the fallacy of thinking that extremist hate crimes can be separated and quarantined from the fact that western societies have become radicalised against Muslims. An article that tries again to show the link between mainstream, fashionable Muslim-bashing and its violent manifestations on the right. An article that fillets the semantic tricks played to stop Muslims ever being complete victims: the line that Islam is not a race; the use of women’s and LBGT rights as a rhetorical stick to beat Muslims with; the cant about freedom of speech, political correctness and the danger of identity politics; the whataboutery and the strawmanning.
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I am not going to write that article today, or ever again. The reason is simple, and it is this. I used to write on the assumption that people didn’t quite fully see the danger and ubiquity of casual hate speech against Muslims, and how it has been racialised and associated with immigration. Naively, I used to think it wasn’t necessarily an obvious danger, because people had been subjected to Islamic terrorism and were coming to terms with that, sometimes sloppily and irresponsibly, but understandably.
I no longer believe this to be the case. Politicians and the media know exactly what they are doing. They know that hating Muslims sells, whether it is for votes or for clicks or for profile raising. They know that there is a sweet spot where prejudice against Muslims and anti-immigration sentiment intersect, and that the former is a good way of legitimising the latter. They know that there is a market for racism, but one that isn’t simply based on skin colour – that’s too difficult to justify openly – and so “Muslim” became a good shorthand for the unwelcome other.
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It is too late to ring the alarm bells once again. Events have overtaken that approach. The warnings have failed and the world has changed. Because the message about Muslims, unchecked, has morphed into something far bigger than one that results in sporadic hate crimes. It has become incorporated into a white supremacist narrative that has borrowed successfully from the playbook of legitimate concerns, weaving anti-Muslim hate into a tapestry along with antisemitism and anti-immigration.
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It is time to stop pleading. It is time to call things what they are and not temper or apologise for the strength of the allegations, to call people racists, opportunists and complicit hatemongers even if they do grace our prestigious publications and seats of governance. It is time to do what they always accuse you of doing anyway, and “shut down the debate”. |
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