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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Wokko wrote: | | Try putting the Guardian down and you might stop seeing Nazis under your bed and feeling the masturbatory urge to call people racists. |
You should grow up, get out more and read a little.
Even Kellyanne Conway's husband called him a racist, before Trump doubled down and had another crack.
Good to see see you "whitewashing" again. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| thesoretoothsayer wrote: | Trump's tweet is inaccurate, offensive and xenophobic.
Can you help me understand what part of it is racist?
If Trump told John Oliver to "go back to where he came from" would that also be racist? |
The reason it's racist is that he isn't saying it to someone like John Oliver and probably wouldn't. Three out of the four congresswomen he attacked don't even "come from" anywhere else; what they do have in common is their non-white skin, which renders them "foreign" in his eyes. That's clearly why he opted for that particular line of attack.
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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| David wrote: | | thesoretoothsayer wrote: | Trump's tweet is inaccurate, offensive and xenophobic.
Can you help me understand what part of it is racist?
If Trump told John Oliver to "go back to where he came from" would that also be racist? |
The reason it's racist is that he isn't saying it to someone like John Oliver and probably wouldn't. Three out of the four congresswomen he attacked don't even "come from" anywhere else; what they do have in common is their non-white skin, which renders them "foreign" in his eyes. That's clearly why he opted for that particular line of attack. |
They all have immigrant backgrounds and are frequently critical of the United States. To me, that adequately explains the "go back to where you came from.." routine. That you identify the colour of their skin as the reason why Trump attacked them doesn't necessarily mean that it is the reason that Trump attacked them. As such, I'm not asking for your interpretation of the tweet. I'm not asking for the vibe of the tweet. I'm asking for someone to point me to the racist statements in the tweet. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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The thing with racism is that it doesn't always come out literally, like, "God I hate brown people". Indeed, I'd say that it very rarely does. But we know that people do have racist views, so it pays to understand how those come out. This, I think, is a fairly indisputable instance of that: reaching for "go back to where you came from" when a non-white person has a political disagreement with you reveals the lens through which you view them. It's an attempt to put them in their place by reminding them "you don't even belong here".
While I agree that we often conflate racism with xenophobia and that this can be unhelpful, I'd argue that Trump's statement here is actually more racist than xenophobic, because ethnicity is much more front and centre here. Feeling hostility towards an all-white-clad Imam with a thick accent and huge beard might be xenophobia; in contrast, all of the women involved are more or less culturally American and show few markers of cultural difference (Omar's headscarf is really the only thing I can think of; otherwise they dress, speak and behave like "ordinary" Americans).
I think it's somewhat possible that even Trump himself doesn't realise he was being racist; the man is not exactly in possession of a superego. But his choice of rhetoric was pretty damning, and I don't really see the point in defending the indefensible.
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
If you say something that others interpret as racist, but you don't realise it's racist, are you a racist?
people will believe what they want to believe, but there is an argument that he was more focused on their criticism of the USA and, channelling the "love it or leave it" slogans.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| There’s all sorts of arguments. None of them holds water. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
If you say something that others interpret as racist, but you don't realise it's racist, are you a racist?
people will believe what they want to believe, but there is an argument that he was more focused on their criticism of the USA and, channelling the "love it or leave it" slogans. |
He was, but the fact he pulled that out here and not in relation to his many white-skinned political opponents indicates that he sees them as foreign and not "real" Americans.
On the first question, can you be a racist without realising you’re being a racist? Yes, absolutely, every day of the week. Everyone wants to think they’re "good" and will sometimes go to any lengths to convince themselves of that. Oftentimes we’re pretty good at hiding it from others, too. But Trump’s racism was blatant here.
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| David wrote: | ...
On the first question, can you be a racist without realising you’re being a racist? Yes, absolutely, every day of the week. Everyone wants to think they’re "good" and will sometimes go to any lengths to convince themselves of that. ... |
Yes, absolutely. The overwhelming majority of racists have convinced themselves they are not racist. (It should also be obvious, if they wanted to think instead of deluding themselves, that there are degrees of racism, so most people must exhibit at least some degree of racism at least some time in their lives.) |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| All the progressives who think that non whites need their help to succeed, in fact can't succeed without them are a prime example of being racist without realising it. Thinking that non whites are so inferior that they need assistance from white liberals is the only true racism (believing a race is inferior) I ever see. |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Wokko wrote: | | All the progressives who think that non whites need their help to succeed, in fact can't succeed without ....... |
Explain again about assumptions and topic deflection. I’m sure it’s riveting.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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Years ago they Daily Show before the current host was doing the show interviewed Carson on the topic of creationism. Another nutter with power.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Wokko wrote: | | All the progressives who think that non whites need their help to succeed, in fact can't succeed without them are a prime example of being racist without realising it. Thinking that non whites are so inferior that they need assistance from white liberals is the only true racism (believing a race is inferior) I ever see. |
What are you talking about? If you're talking about these congresswomen, I think they've done perfectly well for themselves off their own bat and continue to show remarkable courage and resilience. They don't need any white saviours.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| I'm talking about whites who want to feel superior by shouting 'racist' and acting like the friend of the poor coloured folk who can't look after themselves. Malcolm X was right. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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If anyone thinks that about Omar and co., then yes, they probably are expressing "benevolent racism". Whether anyone actually is doing that is another question.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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