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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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First of all, the assertion that there are a "growing number of feminists" speaking up about this is an entirely unproven one. Debates over transgender identity have been present in feminism since at least the 1970s, and the position of radical feminists has often been hostile (look into the history of the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival as an example of this, and the broader history of the "womyn-born womyn" distinction). What makes me think that this is in fact a declining position relates to the rise of third-wave and particularly intersectional feminism since the early '90s and according marginalisation of radical feminism, to the extent that TERFs (trans-exclusionary radical feminists) no longer hold mainstream positions in feminist groups and are often ostracised as hate speakers. Look at the attempt to no-platform Germaine Greer by feminist student unions over recent years, despite the fact that her anti-trans rhetoric (and actions) stretches back to at least the '90s (at which time her views were seemingly far less controversial).
I expect that neither of us have data on what percentage of feminists hold trans-exclusionary views or how those percentages have changed (and I'm not aware of any such research having been conducted – which is unfortunate, as it would be very interesting), but you could easily look into the stances of various feminist lobby groups in Australia and internationally to get a sense of the prevailing view on transgender issues, and I can tell you anecdotally – as someone intimately familiar with the Melbourne left-feminist echo chamber – that trans-exclusionary views are very rare in mainstream feminist circles nowadays.
I acknowledge that my labelling of trans-exclusionary radical feminists as right-wing might be a bit arguable, but they are certainly reactionaries in many ways and have, in the past, made tactical alliances with the right (given that they, like conservative Christians, are often also virulently anti-porn and anti-sex work). You can read more about this movement (including its historical links to the right) here:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trans-exclusionary_radical_feminism
| thesoretoothsayer wrote: | | David wrote: | | I’ve read news reports from Britain in which this very issue has been discussed, and the suggestion from transgender lobbying groups has been that such cases should be assessed carefully by prison authorities and that particularly dangerous individuals should, as an exception, not be permitted into women’s prisons. |
But why would you exclude someone who identifies as a women from women's prison under any circumstances? Doesn't that tacitly state that they are not in fact "proper" women? Isn't that transphobic? |
I'll leave it to others to figure out whether positions advanced by pro-transgender lobby groups are "transphobic".  Ultimately, it's likely a compromise solution aimed at taking ammunition away from anti-trans activists and assuring (not necessarily sympathetic) institutional authorities that trans female offenders, as a general rule, should be placed in women's prisons. As I wrote previously, the ideal solution (and one that I expect these organisations would be most disposed to) would be to treat the dangerous trans female inmate the same way as a dangerous cis female inmate would be (and the same way a dangerous male inmate in an all-male prison should be treated): to be kept in the prison of their gender, but to nonetheless be segregated, guarded or otherwise housed in such a way that they don't pose a threat to fellow inmates. Of course, as we all know, politics sometimes requires pragmatic compromises to be made even if they undermine principles, and I'm sure the extent of compromises that should be made in cases like these are a subject of fierce debate in such circles.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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It was only a matter of time.
| Quote: | A 69-year-old entrepreneur in the Netherlands wants to legally change his age to 49 so he can go back to work and meet more women on Tinder, according to his lawsuit.
Emile Ratelband filed a lawsuit against the Dutch government in an attempt to change the birth date on his passport from March 11, 1949, to March 11, 1969, the Dutch publication De Telegraaf reported.
The self-proclaimed positivity guru argued that he feels 20 years younger, and compared the age difference to being transgender, despite the concepts being completely different.
“You can change your name. You can change your gender. Why not your age? Nowhere are you so discriminated against as with your age,” he told De Telegraaf. |
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/dutch-man-emile-ratelband-wants-to-legally-change-his-age-to-49-2018-11
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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You have to laugh at this pathetic spiral of lunatics demanding attention.
What a joke this world is becoming, sad for my grand kids. The place is going to be totally £$%$ed in a few decades.
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Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Most of us can easily tell the difference between sincere expressions of gender dysphoria and attention-seeking edgelordery. Most of us.
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| That is something I haven't heard of. But not all of them? |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I'm not referring to him, I'm referring to the edgelord in the link that Stui posted. The Lennon case is totally different, and an interesting one if you're into complex questions about what race actually means and how it should be assessed (it has long been asserted that it shouldn't be assessed based on genes and 'percentages', which is why Elizabeth Warren copped so much grief from the left for her Native American DNA test), but also a fairly inconsequential one given how rare it is. You can also look up the Rachel Dolezal affair for a similar scenario that caused far more angst, if you like, and also a controversial journal article about it (which deals with many of the questions in this thread in great detail): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia_transracialism_controversy
Ultimately, such cases make for interesting debating topics for a philosophy class, but they don't really help us deal with pressing real-world issues around transgender identity and the discrimination, vilification and violence that many transgender people face.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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what a crock, he will call it off for $2,500 each, looks like he just wants a pay day. they should get some massive hairy sweaty dude in there to wax his bits, call his bluff
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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I posted the same story but from Business insider only a few posts above/
Please try to keep up.  
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: |
I posted the same story but from Business insider only a few posts above/
Please try to keep up. |
Sorry, Stui. I didn’t know it was old news. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Note the outcome of the case: withdrawn, as it was of course always doomed to failure. Don’t you think it’s a bit unsavoury to focus on these Jerry Springer-style international cases of random transgender people being unreasonable? Like, what point are you trying to make?
(Also, TP, no matter how hysterical or cynically motivated this person was, that’s no reason to misgender her. Right-wing news sites like the one tsts posted from do this deliberately in order to humiliate and intimidate transgender people, and I would prefer if we didn’t follow their lead.)
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: |
Note the outcome of the case: withdrawn, as it was of course always doomed to failure. Don’t you think it’s a bit unsavoury to focus on these Jerry Springer-style international cases of random transgender people being unreasonable? Like, what point are you trying to make?
(Also, TP, no matter how hysterical or cynically motivated this person was, that’s no reason to misgender her. Right-wing news sites like the one tsts posted from do this deliberately in order to humiliate and intimidate transgender people, and I would prefer if we didn’t follow their lead.) |
thats fair i didnt mean too, i went back and looked at the heading, and i guess i saw the words balls and men bits and made an assumption.
actually now im more confused. And i have to say im firmly on the side of the women. Im never going to subject myself to that kind of torture, but im guessing its pretty specialized work, i mean, things are quite um, well not real flat down there, and being competent on traditional female genitalia would not mean you are competent on traditional male genitalia, and one wrong rrriiiiippppp and they get sued for plenty. so why should these women undertake special training? wouldnt it make more sense to go to someone who specializes in that kind of equipment?? and now i read that back and punched in the word traditional! $£$%^%%$ hell. im sorry, this is ridiculous.
from the article:
"In recent months, JY approached 16 Vancouver-area female estheticians who only serve women, requesting a 'Brazilian' bikini wax on his groin area," revealed Carpay on Tuesday. "In spite of the fact that JY is able to obtain a Manzilian in Vancouver, JY has filed 16 complaints against these women at the BC Human Rights Tribunal, claiming discrimination on the basis of 'gender identity.'"
The female estheticians in question only serve women and do not offer so-called "Manzilians" — the male equivalent to a Brazilian wax. "The procedure for providing a man with a 'Manzilian' is quite different, using a different kind of wax and a different technique," noted the lawyer.
Shelah Poyer, one of the women Carpay is defending against JY pro bono, is a single mother who works out of her home.
According to the lawyer, JY said he was willing to withdraw his complaint against Poyer for $2,500. "If JY is demanding similar sums from the other 14 women, he stands to receive as much as $35,000 for dropping his human rights complaints," noted Carpay.
The complaint against Poyer, however, was withdrawn without so much as a hearing after Carpay informed JY in September that he'd be challenging the complaint:
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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