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| Do you want the Collingwood club song's words changed, in particular the word "cakewalk"? |
| 1) No. I do not want any changes to the words. |
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79% |
[ 39 ] |
| 2) Maybe. I am unsure and might be persuaded either way. |
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8% |
[ 4 ] |
| 3) Yes. I want change(s) to the word(s), AND I cannot be bothered reading through the options below to specify exactly what change(s). |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| 4) Yes. Specifically, I want only a one-word change (replace "cakewalk"). |
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6% |
[ 3 ] |
| 5) Yes. Specifically, I want the one-line change "There is just one team we favour" (the Club's failed 1983 version). |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| 6) Yes. Specifically, I want the one-line change "For the Magpie Army's faithful" (To...). |
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2% |
[ 1 ] |
| 7) Yes. Specifically, I want the one-line change "For the courage is unfailing" (At...). |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| 8) Yes. Specifically, I want the one-line change "For I hear the magpie calling". |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| 9) Yes. I want change(s) to the words, AND my specific preference is none of the above. |
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4% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 49 |
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| Author |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| K wrote: | | Rd10.1998_11.1#36 wrote: | ...
How convenient for you that you divide us into sides...
The topic is the word cakewalk and what impact on our finals record removing it will have
The answer is zero |
"Divide us into sides"? That is a bit too melodramatic. I just meant those wanting to keep the word "cakewalk". The only "convenience" was using two words rather than seven, which is a bit long-winded, don't you think?
Just keeping on repeating your "zero impact" claim with no supporting evidence or reasonable argument does not make it true. (The last vaguely implied argument you made seems to be "the poll results".) |
Neither does you repeating your assertion of negative impact.
No matter how you slice it, you cannot make an effective or persuasive case for change.
And that's my last comment in this thread.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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PyreneesPie 
PyreneesPie
Joined: 22 Aug 2014
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| K wrote: |
Just keeping on repeating your "zero impact" claim with no supporting evidence or reasonable argument does not make it true. |
This just about sums up the discussion I reckon.
There has been no evidence or reasoned arguments presented to support the notion that the last line of our club song has zero negative impact. All that has been presented has been scoffing (and personal insults) towards those of us who believe it could just be a mitigating factor in our less than average GF record.
Okay, it's not something that can be easily proven one way or the other. That does not mean our views should ridiculed and dismissed out of hand without some serious thought and consideration.
I believe that K and I (among other contributors) have presented some reasonable arguments to suggest the line may be having negative implications. Some of these are:
1) It is simply not true! The data is evidence for this. The premiership is not a cakewalk for us, given the number of times we have made it to the big dance and lost. How can chanting/singing a lie be beneficial at all?
There are so many other options (yet to be canvassed) that would be true and inspiring and therefore, by virtue of being honest, be more motivational to all involved with the club.
2) It is logically possible that setting the bar so ludicrously high with this line puts extra, unnecessary pressure onto the players and coaches. Unmet expectations result in frustration and decreasing self-belief.
Another phenomenon that I have thought about recently is how unsubstantiated boasting by an otherwise proud and mighty team can back-fire spectacularly when that team fails. This gives rise to the such widely accepted concepts as the Colliwobbles and Kennett's Curse. With social media, a rampant press etc, it's not hard to extrapolate that the "Colliwobbles" could creep into the minds of players, supporters and the identity of a club. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycYpie31L0g .
There was even a ceremony in 1990 conducted by the club to bury the Colliwobbles!!! That's just how far the concept had seeped into our collective minds!!!
I recall how annoyed and frustrated I was when Gary Pert announced at the start of a recent season (would have to look up which one it was) that we would make the eight, no worries. At the time, I just wished he'd kept his mouth shut and stop putting such undue pressure on the team. And of course, we didn't make the eight and more ridicule of and embarrassment within the club followed, with the associated push to sack our coach.
3) Unsubstantiated boasting concerning the ease of winning a premiership is completely out of kilter with the modern day psychological environment that is proving to produce better results in AFL and other sports. Today's best practice is to approach the competition with respect, yet to have the self-belief that the team is capable of getting the job done.
The club itself is promoting this ethos right now.
4) The present line is so out-dated simply because times have changed so dramatically since it was written. There are now 17 other teams in the competition that are aiming for the same goal, not 8.
Add to that the AFL's policy of providing extra support to new and struggling teams, then statistically, our chances of winning the premiership with ease have decreased dramatically. The present last line is so unrealistic and very much out of touch and "Out of Time". Further more, it's never, ever going to revert to the time when it was easy/peasy to win the flag.
So, there it is.... just a few well reasoned and thoughtful arguments as to why the last line of the song should be changed. I know that some of you are relying on the argument of tradition to keep the line, but to my mind, have failed to provide reasoned, substantiated thought/evidence as to why that's a good idea. If that could be done, I'd certainly be open to hearing it. |
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PyreneesPie
PyreneesPie
Joined: 22 Aug 2014
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| stui magpie wrote: |
Neither does you repeating your assertion of negative impact.
No matter how you slice it, you cannot make an effective or persuasive case for change.
And that's my last comment in this thread. |
Fair enough Stui... no compulsion to comment any further.
I would ask you though just to give me the respect of simply reading a summary of my views above. No pressure on you to comment further.
Just have a read. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| stui magpie wrote: | ...
Neither does you repeating your assertion of negative impact.
... you cannot make an effective or persuasive case for change. ... |
No, unlike the naysayers, we have not simply repeated claims without arguments. If naysayers ignore the arguments, we shouldn't be totally surprised, since they also ignore (or actively deny) inconvenient facts.
Last edited by K on Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| PyreneesPie wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: |
Neither does you repeating your assertion of negative impact.
No matter how you slice it, you cannot make an effective or persuasive case for change.
And that's my last comment in this thread. |
Fair enough Stui... no compulsion to comment any further.
I would ask you though just to give me the respect of simply reading a summary of my views above. No pressure on you to comment further.
Just have a read. |
OK, Out of respect i read your post and am responding, so THIS is my last post in this thread. (until the next one)
You put forward some well thought out reasons, they just don't work for me.
1. I cannot accept that 1 word in a club song has negative impacts on the players who represent that club. There are possible situations where that could be true, I don't believe this is one of them and nothing I have read in this thread convinces me otherwise.
On the others,
yes it's not true. It's a song, it doesn't need to be.
Yes it sets the bar high on one hand, but belted out after a win it can be a statement of intent, an affirmation, or it could just be a song.
Yes it's an outdated term, but as discussed before, everyone understands it in context
I'm a supporter of change where I see a reason for it. The principles of continuous improvement mean you never rest on your laurels, you need to keep changing and improving to compete, whether in sport, business or just life. (Kids grow up and you get older, you need to adapt and change to that)
I remain utterly unconvinced that there is a strong case for change here, and to change the words to a song which, apart from one occasion in over a hundred years has remain unchanged (and it was changed back due to supporter backlash) in my mind requires a strong case for change.
That It may, possibly, have a tiny negative impact on players is an unproven hypothesis that does not present a strong case for change. Neither, in my opinion, do your other reasons.
So that's my response, enjoy your long weekend.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| stui magpie wrote: | | .... and to change the words to a song which, apart from one occasion in over a hundred years has remain unchanged* (and it was changed back due to supporter backlash) .... |
I'm not sure whether there was a "backlash". Maybe most supporters didn't even know there was supposed to be a change. Does anyone remember all the details? How was the change made known and implemented? How was the reversal made known and implemented? (e.g. Did they actually play a different soundtrack at games? If they did, did anyone notice?)
* It's also a myth that apart from that the words have remained universally agreed on and unchanged. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| PyreneesPie wrote: | ...
<Listed arguments>
So, there it is.... just a few well reasoned and thoughtful arguments as to why the last line of the song should be changed. I know that some of you are relying on the argument of tradition to keep the line, but to my mind, have failed to provide reasoned, substantiated thought/evidence as to why that's a good idea. ...
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PPie, I'll add that if we want to talk about "tradition", we cannot ignore history -- both the history of the song and the history of other Collingwood symbols, etc. For starters, it's highly likely that there's never been a fixed "official" set of words that everyone has sung.
e.g.
| think positive wrote: | So who sings we and who sings they?
I’m a we personally |
I'm guessing most people choose "we". That is 'wrong', of course. Are those who sing "we" happy to give it up because it's not official or traditional? Or do they believe that something that is not official and not traditional can actually be better? |
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PyreneesPie
PyreneesPie
Joined: 22 Aug 2014
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| stui magpie wrote: |
OK, Out of respect i read your post and am responding, so THIS is my last post in this thread. (until the next one)
You put forward some well thought out reasons, they just don't work for me.
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Thanks for taking the time Stui and responding - truly  I can accept that my reasons don't work for you. That's okay. We all come from different, unique perspectives.
Just one thing.... (can't help myself  )
| Quote: | | to change the words to a song which, apart from one occasion in over a hundred years has remain unchanged (and it was changed back due to supporter backlash) in my mind requires a strong case for change. |
Okay, so you like the tradition associated with the words. No problem. Most of us like traditions in some form or another. But have you stopped to wonder why this particular tradition is so important to you (and others)? How is keeping up one untrue, incorrect line, in the face of enormous change, at all helpful/advantageous/positive ? Maybe it's very difficult to articulate, but no-one here seems to be able to answer this question in a reasonable, logical manner.
You, among others, Stui, have asked for reasons/ evidence that changing the line would be helpful. Fair enough. I've tried to explain why I think it is worthwhile. I've backed up my reasons previously with data and research findings. I'd really like to see some solid evidence/logic for the opinion, that sustaining an out of date tradition is worthwhile for the present. How/why is it so important or worthwhile/beneficial? |
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Rd10.1998_11.1#36
rd10.1998_11.1#36
Joined: 18 Jul 2018
Location: Sevilla, Spain
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| K wrote: | | "Divide us into sides"? That is a bit too melodramatic |
Is it? You are the one who used the term "your side" (as if there are only 2 sides in this debate)
| K wrote: | | I just meant those wanting to keep the word "cakewalk". The only "convenience" was using two words rather than seven, which is a bit long-winded, don't you think? |
Never stopped you before
| K wrote: | | Just keeping on repeating your "zero impact" claim with no supporting evidence or reasonable argument does not make it true |
As someone already mentioned, neither does repeating your claims make them true, no matter how many red herrings you introduce into the discussion. YOU want to change the status quo. YOU claim the word is influencing our GF performance. The burden of proof rests with YOU and your claim is unproven and will remain so for all eternity because it is impossible to prove. So don't complain about lack of evidence to the contrary
_________________
https://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/sav-sinks-the-dockers/ |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| Rd10.1998_11.1#36 wrote: | | K wrote: | | "Divide us into sides"? That is a bit too melodramatic |
Is it? You are the one who used the term "your side" (as if there are only 2 sides in this debate) |
For "your side", substitute "you and stui magpie", if that makes you slightly less unhappy. (Just as you referred to "you and PP".)
| Rd10.1998_11.1#36 wrote: | | ... So don't complain about lack of evidence to the contrary |
What we have been pointing out -- not "complaining" about (you guys have been the ones who seem to have done all the complaining, in very agitated-sounding posts) -- is the lack of any sensible arguments from the naysayers, as well as claims that are factually wrong.
What would be nice would be for naysayers to articulate why the topic stirs such extreme negative emotions in them. |
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Rd10.1998_11.1#36
rd10.1998_11.1#36
Joined: 18 Jul 2018
Location: Sevilla, Spain
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| K wrote: | | For "your side", substitute "you and stui magpie", if that makes you slightly less unhappy. (Just as you referred to "you and PP".) |
Me, Stui and at least 37 other Nicksters...
| K wrote: | | What would be nice would be for naysayers to articulate why the topic stirs such extreme negative emotions in them. |
I won’t speak for others but in my case it’s not the topic, it’s the BS way you try to spin it
_________________
https://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/sav-sinks-the-dockers/ |
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WhyPhilWhy?
WhyPhilWhy?
Joined: 09 Oct 2001
Location: Location: Location:
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Is there the slightest hope of any one changing their minds at this point or will you just continue picking at each other’s arguments (roll on the season proper)?
Thanks...the mods team |
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Rd10.1998_11.1#36
rd10.1998_11.1#36
Joined: 18 Jul 2018
Location: Sevilla, Spain
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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Some previous comments from posters who have not frequented this BB since last year:
| ************* wrote: | | .....we have to remove the word cakewalk from our song. Because premierships are NOT a cakewalk for Collingwood. |
| ************** wrote: |
Couldn't agree more! I literally cringe every time I hear it. It's inviting hubris. |
| ********* wrote: | ^
How about instead we sing
*** |
| *********************** wrote: |
I actually think there might be something in this, there is no need to change the words of the song, but they can be pronounced as one chooses.....thats it, until the next flag, I'm singing ***, and would invite you all to do likewise |
| **************** wrote: | ...
For starters maybe changing our song is timely?
"Oh, the premiership's a cakewalk" to
"Oh, the premiership's a __________" ???? |
| ********** wrote: | | I agree. That line should only be permitted to be sung after a Grand Final triumph and until the next season comes around. |
| ************* wrote: | ...
The line is embarrassing and makes me cringe.
May as well sing....
Oh the Colliwobbles curse us
At the Good Old Collingwood |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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And a hundred or so pages over Cloke staying or leaving was overboard! Have you written to the club?? Brought it up at the AGM??
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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