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George Pell sexual abuse trials and fresh investigation

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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:21 am
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Pies4shaw wrote:
Given their splendid track record, should there even be a confessional? Is it ever safe for anyone to be alone with a a priest in a closeted space?


this!!!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:53 pm
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^ Aren't there two separate "closeted spaces", one per person?
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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:56 pm
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Does "it" still refer to it's the grouping of the three swimming complaints as one?
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:00 pm
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Jezza wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
You remember how several pages back, I said that I was not going to try to explain the concept of "similar fact" evidence and its limits? I'm still not going to.

When I was studying Evidence at university, they referred to it as "tendency evidence" and "coincidence evidence".


It looks like Fairfax have different ideas:

"Joe was not a strong witness. He wanted $20,000 for compromising photographs that appeared to be of Pell and others engaged in sexual acts, but could not produce the negatives.
...

While the credibility of the claims made by ‘‘Joe’’ was never substantiated, a detailed memo of the ex-seminarian’s allegations, seen by The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald, demonstrates that the church was aware of complaints about Pell’s character dating back more than 20 years.

In light of Pell’s conviction for sexual abuse of two choirboys in 1996, The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald believe there is public interest in revealing the trail of complaints that have dogged the cardinal’s career.

Rumours have surrounded the cardinal, especially among survivors of abuse and their advocates, for many years. Some of the allegations might seem preposterous at first, but the same argument was made by some about the choirboy's claim that he and another boy were assaulted more than 20 years ago. This makes the other allegations more relevant."


https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/church-knew-pell-was-at-centre-of-decades-old-lurid-sex-claims-20190307-p512ci.html


I think the last quoted lines may make legal-minded people have fits.
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Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:22 am
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"Victoria's County Court has allowed a camera crew to film chief judge Peter Kidd deliver the sentence, from 10am, so it can be broadcast live on television, radio and news websites. The crew cannot film Pell nor anyone else in the room."
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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:59 am
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Pell has received a full sentence of 6 years, with a non-parole period of 3 years and 8 months.

We’ll find out whether or not this stands in June, which is when the appeal is scheduled. After all this, you’d have to think a successful appeal would be something of a hollow victory.

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Culprit Cancer



Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:17 am
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David wrote:
Pell has received a full sentence of 6 years, with a non-parole period of 3 years and 8 months.

We’ll find out whether or not this stands in June, which is when the appeal is scheduled. After all this, you’d have to think a successful appeal would be something of a hollow victory.
Appealing on the grounds that the Jury got it wrong? Gets out of that I call corruption.
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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:25 am
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It'd be far from an unprecedented result, from my understanding. Some observers think he has a very good chance of winning on those grounds (no "corruption" necessary).

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/feb/28/george-pell-has-good-chance-of-winning-appeal-against-convictions-expert-says

Quote:
Experts spoken to by Guardian Australia agreed that while the latter two appeared flimsy, an appeal on the basis of unreasonableness may have a high chance of success. This argument says the jury delivered a verdict that was not supported by the evidence.

University of Melbourne law school’s criminal appeals and procedure expert, Professor Jeremy Gans, said this was a commonly used grounds for appeal.

“Prosecutors would be completely prepared for an appeal based on this,” he said.

“And it’s not a rare grounds to succeed on. This is the defence’s best shot and carries a bonus for them in that if they win there can almost certainly be no new trial. Because once a court decides a guilty verdict is unreasonable it means they don’t think guilty should be the verdict in the next trial either. They would almost certainly acquit. Basically on this grounds of appeal, the court gets to decide if the jury got it right.”

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Culprit Cancer



Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:39 am
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At this point he's guilty until proven innocent and can sit in his little cell complaining all he wants.
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swoop42 Virgo

Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?


Joined: 02 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:17 pm
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I'm not a Catholic, I'm not religious and I don't like George Pell as he represents ultra conservative Christianity but..........

a jury of his peers couldn't reach a unanimous verdict when presented with the evidence the FIRST TIME around which has been largely forgotten and leads me to believe the evidence wasn't particularly strong.

It seemingly wasn't either with it being the word of one person against another and a case like this only reinforces my belief we need a statute of limitations for all alleged crimes outside of murder like witnessed in the United States.

Pell might well be guilty and the old argument of why any purported victim of child abuse would want to make it up is still a compelling one but 20 years after the fact I would feel more comfortable taking away the freedom of an individual in the face of stronger evidence than the testimony of simply another.

"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"- William Blackstone.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:26 pm
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problem is he aided 10 guilty to escape as well as being a perp himself.

but i get where your coming from.

in this case, **** him

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:40 pm
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I'm pretty much in the same camp as Swoop here, except for one little piece.

Sometimes it's better for an innocent man to cop the wrap (assuming that there isn't a guilty party walking free) if that finding provides a benefit to multiple others.

Even if Pell is found not guilty on appeal, his career is stuffed. He'll never be back in the Vatican or hold any senior position, we'll "retire" and fade from sight.

The guy's rising 78 and has health issues. He's not going to be around for long regardless. To all the multitude of people who suffered at the hands of the church, Pell being found guilt bought a measure of justice being seen to be done, even if he had nothing to do with them personally. Him being acquitted on appeal would just rip that scar wide open.

So if an innocent man has to suffer for the sins of others, how very Catholic.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:49 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
I'm pretty much in the same camp as Swoop here, except for one little piece.

Sometimes it's better for an innocent man to cop the wrap (assuming that there isn't a guilty party walking free) if that finding provides a benefit to multiple others.

Even if Pell is found not guilty on appeal, his career is stuffed. He'll never be back in the Vatican or hold any senior position, we'll "retire" and fade from sight.

The guy's rising 78 and has health issues. He's not going to be around for long regardless. To all the multitude of people who suffered at the hands of the church, Pell being found guilt bought a measure of justice being seen to be done, even if he had nothing to do with them personally. Him being acquitted on appeal would just rip that scar wide open.

So if an innocent man has to suffer for the sins of others, how very Catholic.


i really like this post!!!!

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:40 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
I'm pretty much in the same camp as Swoop here, except for one little piece.

Sometimes it's better for an innocent man to cop the wrap (assuming that there isn't a guilty party walking free) if that finding provides a benefit to multiple others.

Even if Pell is found not guilty on appeal, his career is stuffed. He'll never be back in the Vatican or hold any senior position, we'll "retire" and fade from sight.

The guy's rising 78 and has health issues. He's not going to be around for long regardless. To all the multitude of people who suffered at the hands of the church, Pell being found guilt bought a measure of justice being seen to be done, even if he had nothing to do with them personally. Him being acquitted on appeal would just rip that scar wide open.

So if an innocent man has to suffer for the sins of others, how very Catholic.


This is a very utilitarian argument. I like it (even if I'm not sure I can agree with it on principle!) Mr. Green

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:33 pm
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think positive wrote:
problem is he aided 10 guilty to escape
...

But that's not the charge the jury was asked to deliberate on.
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