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School childrens strike supporting climate change

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stui magpie 

Oh the Premiership's a cakewalk


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:56 pm
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David wrote:


stui magpie wrote:
OK, if you believe the science and understand it, explain it to me in your own words. No links or quotes.


I don’t pretend to be an expert, and there are a lot of details that I don’t fully understand. But my general understanding is that, since the Industrial Revolution, factories and other mass producers (such as the automotive and meat industries) have been pumping the air with high levels of carbon, which has affected the planet’s atmospheric cocktail of gases to the extent that, particularly since the mid-20th century, the Earth’s climate has left the realm of the normal temperature fluctuations that have occurred over the course of recorded human history. What this means is that average temperatures are gradually increasing by nths of a degree all the time, and we’re on track for a 2 to 4 degree rise in average temperatures by the end of the century, which means hotter summers (more droughts and bushfires), more intense pressure systems (more hurricanes, tsunamis and so on) and melting Arctic glaciers leading to rising sea levels and mass population displacement as islands and low-lying coastal cities become uninhabitable. While we can’t reverse the 1 to 1.5 degree rise that’s already happened, the international community can at least stabilise the current situation by phasing out fossil-fuel (coal, petroleum, etc.) use and replacing it with non-carbon-emitting energy sources like wind, solar and (depending on your perspective) nuclear power.

Now, all that’s off the top of my head, and I may have even gotten some minor details wrong; but the important point is that it’s the basic outline of what the problem is, and it’s really all that laypeople need to understand (though they should and can, of course, educate themselves further on the topic): carbon emission bad, planet’s climate get more extreme, keep doing this terrible things happen, scientists agree on this. I dare say most of the kids at the rally understood these basic points, and quite a few would have a much more sophisticated understanding of the topic: because, you know, they were actually paying attention in school and learning stuff, which most people apparently used to think was a good thing...


Ok, that's the populist version which emphasises extreme possibilities.

Tannin will probably come in swinging, but until then, here's the facts as I understand them.

Carbon Dioxide is a greenhouse gas. Burning fossil fuels increases the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere which traps heat inside the atmosphere (like a greenhouse) meaning global warming.

That science has been clarified for decades and should not be in dispute. It's the climate change dire warnings which are disputable.

Global warning leads to higher temperatures, more evaporation and therefore heavier rainfalls when it rains. It can also cause more severe droughts. The impact on things like hurricanes and cyclones is less confirmed.

Higher temperatures leads to ice melting which increases sea levels. Slowly.

Of note is the fact that, as Skids has pointed out repeatedly and to general derision, the worlds climate has changed repeatedly over millennia. In the last inter glacial period, around 125,000 years ago, the estimate is that the average temperature was 3-5 degrees hotter than now and sea level was 4-6 metres higher.

Conversely, 20,000 years ago during the last glacial period, sea levels were 100 metres lower than now, the temperature colder and drier, during which much of the upper northen hemisphere was under sheet ice.

Yet things like the great barrier reef which is around 400,000 years old (but only around 6,000 in it's current incarnation) have survived and flourished.

Humans tend to look at things short term. We only have reliable temperature records going back around 100 years, a fraction of a poofteenth in geological time.

Global warming due to burning fossil fuels is a scientific fact.

Climate change as a result of global warming is a scientific theory, heavily pushed by environmentalists. There are a number of factors completely out of our control which also impact the worlds climate.

The Armageddon theories being pushed about the potential impacts of the potential climate change are pure propaganda.

At the end of the day, burning less fossil fuel and using more renewable energy is better for the environment and should be encouraged. But, as I said in another thread, we're due for a glacial period any time now (next thousand years) so global warming vs external factors that trigger a glacial period around every 100,000 years or so will be an interesting battle that none of us will be alive to see.

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ronrat 



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:50 pm
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When i was high school student we had protests about the Vietnam conflict (we were not all keen to go and shoot people And we were not all keen on the fur trade. If kids want to have a say let them.
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Skids Cancer



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:05 pm
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And that's fair enough Rat. But then, they didn't run out and shoot someone, did they?

These kids are mounting a protest against global warming policy, or lack there of... then.

They can't get by without; a new phone every year, air con on in the car, even when it's only 26 degrees outside, a tv in their bedroom... I could go on and on... they line up in cars at maccas, to buy fast food and throw the rubbish out the window... I know, I see it every day when I walk my dog.

I think; recycling, better rubbish management, less updating your phone every 12 months, ... basic, common sense stuff, is more important than staging futile protests.

DO Something about what you believe in, don't bitch about it.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:15 am
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^ Firstly, these are absurd conflations and generalisations. I dare say not one of the kids you’ve seen throwing rubbish out of windows would have been there at the rally. People who do stuff like that are very unlikely to care about climate change or policy surrounding it. And how do you know they all have air con, TVs in their bedrooms and new phones every year? I never had any of those things growing up, and even if they’ve become more commonplace, you don’t know for a fact that at least some of these kids aren’t already taking steps to reduce their usage of those devices. Children can be remarkably single-minded about things, and there’s scarcely a demographic out there who’d be more switched on to these issues than environmentally conscious high school students.

But even if none of that were the case, it’s a common tactic of reactionaries to sneer at political activists for being insufficiently pure in their own lives. That’s wrong on many levels. Focusing on individual behaviour instead of government/company policy doesn’t get results because government or industry have far more real-world impact than any individual ever can, and insisting that activists be pure in their own lives sets the bar impossibly high to become engaged in activism, because none of us are perfect and we’re all hypocrites sometimes. And lastly, what do you think has more positive impact on the world: a person who uses air-conditioning and doesn’t try to do anything to improve the world, or a person who uses air-conditioning and tries to lobby government to introduce more environmentally friendly policy?

Ultimately, your motives here are fairly transparent. The reason you’re dismissing these kids as hypocrites (without any evidence, and based merely on tired grumpy-old-fart generalisations about how terrible the youth of today are), is that you resent the fact that they’re doing something to make the world better and you’re not. You interpret anyone fighting for a progressive cause as a personal attack, because it makes you worry deep down that they’re better than you and that they’re judging you. And so you try to tear them down to preserve your own ego. But the irony is that, in most cases, activists like these kids aren’t thinking about people like you at all, and aren’t motivated by a desire to feel superior; rather, they actually care about the issue at hand – keeping the planet liveable – which, in this case, is one that benefits you as much as it benefits them.

I guess what I’m trying to say is, don’t be a hater; you’re not a bad person, or inferior to people who care about the world, or whatever. Just try to do your bit for the good, and stop trying to stand in the way of people who are trying to do theirs.

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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:53 am
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ronrat wrote:
When i was high school student we had protests about the Vietnam conflict (we were not all keen to go and shoot people And we were not all keen on the fur trade. If kids want to have a say let them.


That's the point. Hence my earlier post about the histrionic reaction from others be it on Nicks or other media about some school kids demonstating their concerns about climate change.

Remarkable.

Then again I recall the moratorium demonstrations back in the early 70's and the public reaction in some quarters about that. (that's for another thread)

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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:20 am
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roar wrote:
think positive wrote:

To all the school kids going on "strike" for Climate Change.

You are the first generation who have required air-conditioning in every classroom.

You want TV in every room and your classes are all computerised.

You spend all day and night on electronic devices.

More than ever, you don't walk or ride bikes to school but arrive in caravans of private cars that choke suburban roads and worsen rush hour traffic.

You are the biggest consumers of manufactured goods ever and update perfectly good expensive luxury items to stay trendy.

Your entertainment comes from electric devices.

Furthermore, the people driving your protests are the same people who insist on artificially inflating the population growth through immigration, which increases the need for energy, manufacturing and transport.

The more people we have, the more forest and bushland we clear and more of the environment is destroyed.

How about this...

Tell your teachers to switch off the air-con.
Walk or ride to school.

Switch off your devices and read a book.

Make a sandwich instead of buying manufactured fast food.

No, none of this will happen because you are selfish, badly educated, virtue signalling little turds, inspired by the adults around you who crave a feeling of having a "noble cause" while they indulge themselves in Western luxury and unprecedented quality of life.”

Wake up, grow up and shut up until you are sure of the facts before protesting.


You can't blame the school kids for most of those points. It's the adults who brought in the air-conditioning in classrooms, the parents who insist on driving their cherished ones to school (often in a stupid 4WD), buy all the stupid consumables for them to throw away, introduce and refuse to monitor internet or other screen usage.

Yes, they can take it upon themselves to change those habits, but as mentioned, they were introduced and nurtured by the adults "looking after" them, which is why they are self-indulgent, spoilt brats.

However, the gist of the protest was climate change denialism, which is conveniently absent from the facebook rant.


um, you didnt quote me, you quoted what i quoted, please dont shorten a post like that!

i said a lot of it is true, but not that i agree with it.

as WPT said, i cant believe anyone could get upset about these kids. It doenst matter what motivated them to think as long as they think, thats how revolutions start.

there is a couple of threads here at the moment with some mind boggling opinions, this and the Me Too one come immediately to mind. Anyone who doesnt think global warming is a problem should take a trip to the Glaciers, or just googled the polar caps, the shrinkage is scary. And any decrease in pollution is a good thing for more than just that reason, do people not care about the world our kids are growing up in?

Im sure if i look hard enough someone whinged about the school kids from Florida and their anti gun protest. get the next generation thinking. Its working with cigarettes, how is this a bad thing? who are they hurting?

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:21 am
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watt price tully wrote:
ronrat wrote:
When i was high school student we had protests about the Vietnam conflict (we were not all keen to go and shoot people And we were not all keen on the fur trade. If kids want to have a say let them.


That's the point. Hence my earlier post about the histrionic reaction from others be it on Nicks or other media about some school kids demonstating their concerns about climate change.

Remarkable.

Then again I recall the moratorium demonstrations back in the early 70's and the public reaction in some quarters about that. (that's for another thread)


yup

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David Libra

Rose with a violent heart


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:28 am
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think positive wrote:
Im sure if i look hard enough someone whinged about the school kids from Florida and their anti gun protest.


Wanna bet? Shocked (That is to say, you don't have to look very hard.)

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thesoretoothsayer 



Joined: 26 Apr 2017


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:02 pm
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In related news:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/06/give-six-year-olds-the-vote-says-cambridge-university-academic
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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:06 pm
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I do not understand that allusion.
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Pi 



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:42 pm
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thesoretoothsayer wrote:
In related news:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/06/give-six-year-olds-the-vote-says-cambridge-university-academic


I'm not sure the dear professor has thought it through all that well.
conservatives generally have more children and at age six they probably wont vote the way he wants.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/study-conservative-baby-boom-will-shift-nation-further-right

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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:43 pm
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Why not?
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Pies4shaw 



Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:01 pm
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https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-07/climate-change-denialism-holocaust-david-attenborough-coal/10585744

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2018-12-06/greenland-ice-sheet-melting-accelerating/10581980

Here is the US Government's own administration's most recent climate change assessment: https://nca2018.globalchange.gov/

Enjoy. All preferably read on your air-conditioned ark.
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David Libra

Rose with a violent heart


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:02 pm
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thesoretoothsayer wrote:
In related news:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/06/give-six-year-olds-the-vote-says-cambridge-university-academic


It’s a bit of a crazy idea, but I like people who think outside the box on this stuff (particularly when so many of us just accept the current voting age because it happens to be the status quo).

Ultimately the biggest problem is as Pi says above – the vast majority of primary-aged kids will just vote according to their parents’ beliefs, and of course be hugely susceptible to those biases in even the best case scenario. I know for a fact that I would have voted for the Liberals or One Nation when I was ten years old, because that’s how my parents voted. There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with a child voting for those parties, of course, and many adults also vote for superficial reasons, but one can be sure that the figures of bright and highly educated young kids will be swamped by the figures of young kids robotically voting according to their parents’ wishes, and that’s before we even get to the absurdly high rates of donkey votes (and other junk votes). A mitigating possibility could be to make voting voluntary below a certain age, but it won’t be enough to satisfactorily resolve any of these problems.

I’d be open to lowering the voting age to 16 or even a little bit younger, though (and perhaps, but not necessarily, making voting voluntary for under 18s). I think most middle teenagers are old enough to think in sophisticated ways about the society they live in and about what matters to them, and that such a policy wouldn’t decrease the average knowledge base of the electorate, and might well even increase it. (Whereas I think lowering the vote to 6 would clearly decrease it and thus further detach election results from any kind of democratic will).

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roar 



Joined: 01 Sep 2004


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:48 pm
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think positive wrote:

um, you didnt quote me, you quoted what i quoted, please dont shorten a post like that!

i said a lot of it is true, but not that i agree with it.


Sorry TP, my post wasn't aimed at you directly but rather, the rant you quoted.

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