 |
|
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: Islam, the left and feminism. |  |
|
Something I've never understood is the left's fascination with Islam, of which most fundamental beliefs conflict so openly with the progressive lefts.
I found this website referred to in the Aged and had a look, found this article which I find refreshing in it's honesty even though I have NFI about the different versions of feminism or what intersectional even is. The quoted bit is the opening section from the article by a young Muslim woman, Omayma Mohamed, who has renounced Islam.
I think it's an interesting article, as a lot of the stuff is on this site.
| Quote: | I attended the infamous “#Feminist” speaking event at the Sydney Town Hall. It was a discussion between Roxane Gay, a Haitian-born intersectional feminist, and Christina Hoff Sommers, a self-described “equity feminist.” I went with the intention of confronting my growing disillusionment with the morally proscriptive nature of intersectional feminism and the broader leftist movement. I harboured hopes that the divisive behaviour I was seeing on social media was disproportionately represented by radicals and that the event would bring some sense to the madness. Instead, I left feeling completely alienated from a movement that once brought me so much hope.
It was my second crisis of faith in three years, the first being my renunciation of Islam at the age of 21. Free from the shackles of fundamentalism, I embraced the left-wing movement with open arms. Until only recently, I saw it as a celebration of everything I’d been denied as a devout Muslim. As a woman who’d been forced into the hijab at puberty, trapped within the Islamic guardianship system and restricted by groupthink, I loved the emphasis on individuality, choice and autonomy that I found in progressive politics. My exposure to abuses of power allowed me to relate to identity politics and victimhood narratives.
This began to change about six months ago when I became involved with the ex-Muslim movement. As I became acquainted with the activism of role models such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Yasmine Mohamed, Armin Navabi and Ali Rizvi, I began to recognise the cognitive dissonance afflicting the left, leaving them with a severe blind spot. A bizarre alliance with Islam, a set of very conservative ideas, has earned them the label of “regressive left’’ instead. Their misguided campaign against “Islamophobia” has failed to separate the ideology from the people, conflating prejudice against Muslims with valid opposition to the doctrine. The stigma has hindered constructive discourse and established a concerning trend whereby issues typically challenged by the left, such as homophobia and gender inequality are disregarded where prevalent in Muslim majority countries or even Muslim communities within the west.
Like me, many ex-Muslims have felt it to be their responsibility to fill this void in leftist activism. Yet we are often met with reflexive accusations of bigotry or intolerance. Despite lived experiences and intimate understanding of the doctrine driving our stances, we are denied a platform to voice them. This censorship of confronting ideas stems from the left’s fixation on distinguishing themselves from the right. A severe overcorrection has ironically pushed them into an illiberal territory. Affiliates of the left must conform to prescribed beliefs and behaviours to prove their loyalty. Those that pass the test are rewarded with the illustrious “woke” status. Failure to do so carries the risk of misalignment with “the enemy” and exile as a result. |
It's a long article, but very interesting I think
https://quillette.com/2019/04/28/how-intersectionalism-betrays-the-worlds-muslim-women/
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
 |
stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
|
|
|
|
Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| She'd last 2 seconds on Nick's. |
|
|
|
|
thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
|
| Post subject: | |
|
I expected a hit piece but the reporter just stuck to straight reporting.
The article even contained a reasonable description of the James Damore/Google situation.
I don't think Jennifer Duke will last long at the SMH/The Age. |
|
|
|
|
David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Skids wrote: | | She'd last 2 seconds on Nick's. |
Funny you say that, because the distinction she seems to be making is more or less exactly the one articulated here:
http://magpies.net/nick/bb/viewtopic.php?t=85446
| Quote: | we continue to permit posts that:
Are critical of ideas, institutions, thought systems or public figures |
and that:
| Quote: | | Islam, both in terms of the religion itself and its existence as a political/cultural phenomenon, is an acceptable subject for vigorous critical discussion. |
But that:
| Quote: | | Muslims as a group or as individuals must not be discussed in hateful, bigoted or prejudicial terms. |
What she's saying, as I understand it, is that many on the Left have inadvertently conflated support of Muslims as people with a tacit support for (or, at least, unwillingness to critique) Islam the religion. Certainly, that's a distinction I've always tried to make clear – for instance, a part of me thinks that Islam, like all Abrahamic religions, is kind of dumb, and I don't quite understand why any thinking person would believe in it – and those who've paid attention to my posts on here will note that, when commenting on international politics, I will always tend to support secular liberal movements in the Islamic world, because I know that those (often severely oppressed) groups are the ones who reflect my worldview and are fighting for the same things I'd be fighting for. In terms of politics in the West, I also staunchly oppose any kind of anti-blasphemy law, which would, in my view, institutionalise that conflation.
But I also acknowledge that I'm hardly representative of "the left", and that my view may be a far from orthodox one. So, do progressives, by and large, have a cognitive dissonance on this topic?
Basically, I think there's some truth and some falsity to such claims. If you ask leftists what they think of, say, the Saudi or Iranian government's treatment of women, I think the vast majority would say that they're appalled by it, and that they support feminists in the Muslim world who are fighting against that oppression. But one does have a sneaking suspicion that, in at least some cases, you'd have to coax that view out of them, and that they may feel more comfortable talking about some minor act of oppression happening in the US or the UK than much more substantial injustices taking place in the Middle East. The reasons for that are complex, and I suspect have something to do with identity politics, an oversimplification of oppression/privilege discourse and the same blind spot that makes most of us (regardless of political persuasion) care more about ten people dying in London than a hundred people dying in the Democratic Republic of Congo, and so on.
But at the same time, we have to recognise that, when these criticisms come from a right-leaning publication like Quillette, they are pushing an agenda of their own: not just that Islam has ultra-conservative aspects that shouldn't be treated with kid gloves, but that Islam is a uniquely evil religion that is incapable of liberalising and/or fundamentally incompatible with Western society. That's a viewpoint I'd expect most progressive-leaning people to oppose, and one that I've argued against strongly in the past myself – not because I'm an apologist for Islam (as some people there and here would characterise me), but because I see this argument as, at best, an extremely blinkered understanding of how religion works, culturally and psychologically (requiring an acceptance of certain myths about Christianity and the history of Western social progress), and one that plays into the Holy War rhetoric of the Christian right, many of whose views on these matters are essentially the same as those of 11th century crusaders and really shouldn't be humoured (needless to say, they have many counterparts among the Muslim right too). Personally, I don't accept that Christianity and Islam are fundamentally different; rather, I see them as being at different stages of evolution, much of which is determined by how the societies around them have evolved – and that, rather than promoting conflict and apartness, the best hope of progress is to hold onto the core cultural principle of religious freedom and let Islam be reformed and modernised from the inside, as it has been in many places and will continue to be.
So yes, those of us on the left could be doing more to express solidarity with progressives in the Islamic world, and I for one would oppose any tendency to stay silent about their struggle or attempt to apologise for their oppressors. At the same time, we have to remember a basic truth: that human beings are, by their nature, inconsistent, ignorant about various subjects and often hypocritical, and that these are qualities that exist right across the political spectrum. So, rather than criticising "the Left" for not doing enough, it would be more constructive to ask ourselves what our blind spots are, and what more we ourselves could be doing to oppose injustice in the world.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Interesting and thoughtful response.
I'm curious how you decided that Quillete was a right leaning publication? Was that based on the site content or something else?
My viewing of the content would base it fairly centre but certainly challenging some leftish ideologies.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
I have to confess I don’t read the site much, but my impression is that they’re kind of situated around the Jordan Peterson / Brendan O’Neill / Sam Harris / Camille Paglia realm of the political spectrum – that is, essentially kind of right-libertarian. I’d probably have at least some political common ground with them (and, indeed, I thought the article you posted made some good points), but looking at their website it seems they do have certain agendas that situate them in the so-called "intellectual dark web" sphere.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
From what the Aged article said, the genesis of the site was to provide an alternative news site that wasn't biased. I guess if you were successful at that you'd have both right and left wingers accusing you of bias. 
I like how the articles don't obviously used biased language but present a reasoned argument, a lot of things in the article I posted resonated with me, hence I shared it here. I think it's a worthwhile discussion, separating Islam and it's clear shortcomings as a way of life and belief system (not just a religion) and Muslims who are the people born into the pervasive culture with often no choice in the matter.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
|
|
|
|
|
roar
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Not sure how David Rubin gets to be counted among the "intellectual dark web". Always comes across as a bit of an intellectual lightweight to me.
_________________
kill for collingwood! |
|
|
|
|
Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| roar wrote: | | Not sure how David Rubin gets to be counted among the "intellectual dark web". Always comes across as a bit of an intellectual lightweight to me. |
Rubin primarily interviews those who are in the so-called "intellectual dark web".
_________________
| 1902 | 1903 | 1910 | 1917 | 1919 | 1927 | 1928 | 1929 | 1930 | 1935 | 1936 | 1953 | 1958 | 1990 | 2010 | 2023 | |
|
|
|
|
roar
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Yes, I know but he also gets listed as a part of the group. Maybe I am being a bit harsh on him but he just doesn't seem that sharp. Rogan also is an interviewer and though not at the same intellectual level as the Weinstein brothers, he does show capacity for deep thinking. Rubin, on the other hand comes across as a bit of a bimbo.
_________________
kill for collingwood! |
|
|
|
|
Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
|
| Post subject: | |
|
I don't mind Rubin, but he's certainly not in the same intellectual realm as others such as Peterson, the Weinstein brothers, Shapiro and etc.
I also enjoy listening to Rogan's podcast, but a common criticism of him is his flip flopping nature on certain positions depending on the guest.
_________________
| 1902 | 1903 | 1910 | 1917 | 1919 | 1927 | 1928 | 1929 | 1930 | 1935 | 1936 | 1953 | 1958 | 1990 | 2010 | 2023 | |
|
|
|
|
Skids
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
|
| Post subject: | |
|
What's openly being 'taught', even in the USA, in these so called Islamic schools, is quite alarming. I'm thinking the penny is going to drop by around 2021, when things really heat up.
Philadelphia schoolchildren sing anti-Israel songs
Muslim schoolchildren in Philadelphia perform anti-Israel songs at event 'Islamic science' event.
Two Twitter videos show a boys' performance and a girls' performance, both embracing terrorism and promoting anti-Semitism. Both songs featured in the performances were produced by the Jordanian "Birds of Paradise" children's group.
In the boys' song, lyrics include: "The blood of the martyrs is calling us" and "Sword and text, oh free men/ until we liberate our lands/until we reach our anchorages/ and we crush the traitor" as.well as "Oh rivers of the martyrs, lads."
In the girls' song, students sang: "They were attacked by the army of darkness, and they occupied our Aqsa for years/ but Saladin came to us, an army committed to our religion / God with clear victory / he achieved a dream and returned al-Aqsa / And the Zionists today returned / They occupied al-Aqsa /
But we are not to blame / and our Masra will be restored."
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/262639 |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Typical religious programming via song, although most don't indoctrinate kids toward violence.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
|
|
The Rules
FAQ
Usergroups
Calendar
Search
Log in
Register
