#17,#11 Dayne Beams
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jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| SuperSwede wrote: | What a load of garbage!
I’m sure Heater promised that he would mend his ways. The world is full of people who have promised just that. Poor fellow, it seems that the club was not convinced that he was capable of mending his ways. I bet Eddie and a few others were relieved that they didn’t have to put up with his last drunken caper.
Daisy was indeed regarded by some as one of the best in the game in 2011. However at risk of stating the obvious we didn’t trade him in 2011. In fact we offered him a 4 year contract which he turned down. We traded him at the end of the 2013 season, by which time considerably fewer – if any - were saying that he was one of the best in the game. “He was far from (Carlton’s) their worst.” Bloody hell, the guy is getting 700 K a year for 4 years in a club which you yourself recently described as an absolute train wreck. I imagine that most at Carlton would hope that for that kind of money you would be something more than far from their worst.
Heater and Daisy were terrific players for us in the 2010 GF, but the sad fact is that terrific players don’t remain terrific players forever. There inevitably comes a time to move on.
How do you know that Dane Swan would go elsewhere if he were younger? Has he come out and said so? How do you know that Maxy and Ball know that they would continue to get injured due to Buckley’s training methods? Have they come out and said so? Playing at AFL level is pretty hard on the body and I suppose that after 10 or more years you might just decide that enough is enough. Maxwell has been the captain of a premiership team, he has stepped down from the captaincy, perhaps he senses deep down that his skills are not elite (God knows he’s been abused often enough on this site) he’s copped a seemingly long-term ankle injury. Isn’t it just a very reasonable decision to call it a day? With Ball we will just have to wait and see if the right offer comes along. And if it doesn’t?
Back to back minor premiers. As a long time Collingwood supporter I guess you would be familiar with the scenario of being minor premiers but falling short in the finals. Nathan Buckley took over a team which had been minor premiers twice. It is also true to say that he took over a team which had been convincingly beaten in the GF and – this is just my own opinion - was perhaps just a little bit lucky to be there in the first place. It’s entirely possible that somebody else would have had more success with this team, but if we are honest with ourselves, this is mere speculation.
If Buckley let a “star” like Dale Thomas go just because he could not accept that Daisy was more popular than he himself was, in my book that boils down to a pretty serious accusation. If you have any proof of this put it on the table so we all can see it. Maybe some of us will change our opinion of Buckley. To let one’s own vanity stand in the way of one’s professional judgement is poor to say the least.
If on the other hand you cannot substantiate that claim then I would have to regard it as a totally unacceptable slur on one of this club’s absolute legends. In fact I think it is downright insulting. For mine you can criticize Nathan Buckley all you like for his deeds or lack of deeds as a coach and I guess there will never be total consensus on his merits as such. But to suggest this sort of thing is pretty poor particularly as it comes from a bloke who bemoans the fact that he has been attacked on this site and that the moderators have done nothing. It is apparently not OK to personally attack some of the contributors to this site, but it is OK to personally attack the coach. |
Stands and applauds! |
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King Malta 
RIP Flip
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Location: Gettin' Wiggy
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| SuperSwede wrote: | | 35forever wrote: | Oh what a lot of twaddle! How DARE anyone suggest Beamer isn't an A-Grader! He is not only one of the top ten players in the game he was a goal-kicking mid, something we are seriously going to miss in 2015. And we certainly would've been paying him something like 800K next year, that's simply the going rate for elite mids. Bloody history revisionists, what a bunch of unmitigated hypocrites! I never read word 1 bagging Beamer until post-season this year, he was one of the very few Magpies who didn't seem to get slandered here much. As for Daisy & Heater, how short your memories are! For a start heater was DUMPED. He wanted to stay and promised to amend his behaviour but Buckley wanted the 'Rat pack' gone and he got his wish. The club said it was 'mutual' and Heater immediately denied that publicly. If Swan was a couple of years younger we would have lost him too. Daisy was in exactly the same position, he wanted to stay but Buckley wouldn't cop someone twice as popular as himself and made sure he went. If Collingwood had given him an offer anything like his worth he would've signed before the FA period started, he was dying to do so and end the speculation. Instead he was offered peanuts when he was one of the best players in the game. Leigh Matthews called him "arguably the best there is" in 2011 when there seemed to be two of him most games. That was the year he added an extreme work rate to his amazing skills, and right up to his last game for us last year his ability to read the game and find space was unparalleled. Clearly most of you have forgotten, but if you doubt me go watch his last full game against StKilda last year, go watch any final he played in. To judge him on his output at Carlton, where he obviously doesn't want to be, is ridiculous (but take a closer look at his games there, he was far from their worst). If he'd played for us in 2014 it would have been very different. He was the best reader of Pendles and Swan I ever saw. Just accept that you don't know the details of his departure and judge him on his football.
Then we have Maxy & Ball, among others, who left Collingwood because they knew they would keep getting injured under Buckley, like most of the side, but when you've passed 30 it gets harder to continue. Why do you think Ball said he'd play on at another club if the right offer came? If you Blind folks can't get it through your skulls that 3 straight years of injuries doesn't just 'happen', there is little hope for the future. By the time next years NAB ...'thing' is over we'll have one or two more injured players, will you STILL be bemoaning poor old Buckley's bad luck? Probably. And when you compare him to Bomber Thompson and Alistair Clarkson, who also took several years to get their clubs into contention, try to remember that they were given Dud clubs, Buckley was handed the reigning back-to-back Minor Premiers who everyone expected to go even better in 2012. We were outright flag favourites, and even the following year it was us or Hawthorn. This crap about us being 'in development' is just an excuse, as is the rubbish about accepting 'Short term pain'. That's just a free pass for Buckley! He can't lose! If we finish 14th it's "all part of the long term plan", if we make finals he's a hero! The guy can't lose simply because a small group (which unfortunately includes the President) simply won't face the fact that he can't coach. How many times have I asked for examples of the great coaching? How many times have the Blind Brigade changed the subject to me and my evil treachery??? As they'll do again. The fact is that the most common view among Magpie fans is a 'wait and see'. They'll give Buckley another year to see what he can do without injuries. The smaller groups are people like me who want him replaced while there's a replacement available, and the BB, who think he's been the best thing to happen to Collingwood since Jock McHale. Yes, these two groups make more noise than the much larger one, but I guess that's because we care more.
One of us however is behaving like the Cairo surf lifesavers club |
What a load of garbage!
I’m sure Heater promised that he would mend his ways. The world is full of people who have promised just that. Poor fellow, it seems that the club was not convinced that he was capable of mending his ways. I bet Eddie and a few others were relieved that they didn’t have to put up with his last drunken caper.
Daisy was indeed regarded by some as one of the best in the game in 2011. However at risk of stating the obvious we didn’t trade him in 2011. In fact we offered him a 4 year contract which he turned down. We traded him at the end of the 2013 season, by which time considerably fewer – if any - were saying that he was one of the best in the game. “He was far from (Carlton’s) their worst.” Bloody hell, the guy is getting 700 K a year for 4 years in a club which you yourself recently described as an absolute train wreck. I imagine that most at Carlton would hope that for that kind of money you would be something more than far from their worst.
Heater and Daisy were terrific players for us in the 2010 GF, but the sad fact is that terrific players don’t remain terrific players forever. There inevitably comes a time to move on.
How do you know that Dane Swan would go elsewhere if he were younger? Has he come out and said so? How do you know that Maxy and Ball know that they would continue to get injured due to Buckley’s training methods? Have they come out and said so? Playing at AFL level is pretty hard on the body and I suppose that after 10 or more years you might just decide that enough is enough. Maxwell has been the captain of a premiership team, he has stepped down from the captaincy, perhaps he senses deep down that his skills are not elite (God knows he’s been abused often enough on this site) he’s copped a seemingly long-term ankle injury. Isn’t it just a very reasonable decision to call it a day? With Ball we will just have to wait and see if the right offer comes along. And if it doesn’t?
Back to back minor premiers. As a long time Collingwood supporter I guess you would be familiar with the scenario of being minor premiers but falling short in the finals. Nathan Buckley took over a team which had been minor premiers twice. It is also true to say that he took over a team which had been convincingly beaten in the GF and – this is just my own opinion - was perhaps just a little bit lucky to be there in the first place. It’s entirely possible that somebody else would have had more success with this team, but if we are honest with ourselves, this is mere speculation.
If Buckley let a “star” like Dale Thomas go just because he could not accept that Daisy was more popular than he himself was, in my book that boils down to a pretty serious accusation. If you have any proof of this put it on the table so we all can see it. Maybe some of us will change our opinion of Buckley. To let one’s own vanity stand in the way of one’s professional judgement is poor to say the least.
If on the other hand you cannot substantiate that claim then I would have to regard it as a totally unacceptable slur on one of this club’s absolute legends. In fact I think it is downright insulting. For mine you can criticize Nathan Buckley all you like for his deeds or lack of deeds as a coach and I guess there will never be total consensus on his merits as such. But to suggest this sort of thing is pretty poor particularly as it comes from a bloke who bemoans the fact that he has been attacked on this site and that the moderators have done nothing. It is apparently not OK to personally attack some of the contributors to this site, but it is OK to personally attack the coach. |
A round of applause from another SuperSwede  |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| John Wren wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | av. of a bit over one goal a game. would we even notice? |
just did some quick research, of pendles, swans, sidey and beams only beams has a goal kcking average above one per game. this surprised me. further to this, fyfe, selwood and co av. approx one goal per a game. |
At the risk of inadvertently starting an intelligent discussion about who will kick Collingwood's goals, I am going to respond by quoting myself from May of 2013:
| Pies4shaw wrote: | In 2008, Malcolm Blight described Collingwood (immediately before a 100 point demolition of the Wiggles) as having the best four small forwards in the Game (then Didak, Davis, Medhurst and Thomas). That day, the 4 kicked 14 of 27 Collingwood goals.
In more recent times, I have been wondering what happened to the big spread of goalkickers Collingwood usually had in 2010 and 2011.
Going back over some stats, I noticed the following:
1. In the first 8 rounds of 2010, between one-half and two-thirds of the goals in each game came from players who have left or have been largely unavailable in 2012 or 2013 (Medhurst, Lockyer, Fraser Davis, Didak, O'Bree etc).
2. Looking at the 2010 finals (by which time, Medders, Tarks, Fraser and OB were not in the team), in the 3 wins (ie, ignoring the draw, when Collingwood only managed 9 goals), about a third of the goals in each game were contributed by players who have left or have been largely unavailable in 2013.
3. Looking at the 2011 finals, the position was that at least half of all Collingwood's finals goals came from such players (Krak was the biggest of those contributors, of course).
4. Looking at the side which took the park against Freo last week, only 2 players (Cloke, average a whisker under 1.7) and the Krak (Collingwood average of about 1.5) kick more than 1 goal per game. Lynch has a good career average but hasn't yet delivered anything like it at Collingwood.
5. None of the new small forwards in last week's match (Kennedy, Mooney, Dwyer, Elliott) has a goal per game average significantly over three-quarters of a goal per game.
6. By contrast, the Hawthorn team which flogged us earlier this year had Franklin (3.24 average), Breust (1.96), Roughead (1.85) and Gunston (1.69 - but even better at Hawthorn) with goal averages as good as or better than our best on the park last week. There are then other players (Hale, Hawthorn average of 1) and Rioli (1.33) and Smith (0.95) who do, roughly speaking, a goal per game or better.
Of course, such comparisons are of limited utility - one might, for example, point out that Hawthorn has a higher-scoring style of game (although that may also be a chicken and egg question). But, they do, perhaps, offer at least a part of the explanation for why Collingwood has found it very difficult to kick a winning score against the best opposition this year. If Hawthorn has its best 7 goal-kickers from round 2 on the park, it can reasonably expect 12 goals from them on average each game before worrying about what the other 15 players can contribute. By contrast, if Collingwood puts its best 7 goal-kickers from the Freo game on the park, it can expect about 6 or 7 goals from them.
Food for thought. |
I mention this because I still think it's of critical importance to the team's improvement - I accept, of course, that to some extent good goal-kicking results are a consequence of good team play but I think it's very important to have a few players that the opposition has to watch closely around goals.
By way of update to my point 5, above, Elliott went at about 2 goals per game in 2014 (33 from 17 matches), as did Cloke (39 from 20), Beams went at his career average of a bit over 1 per game (23 from 19), Broomy kicked 9 from 8 and White kicked 20 from 18. Apart from Gault, who only made a cameo appearance, no-one on the list went at a goal a game or better in 2014. Reid probably would have (he kicked 25 from 22 games in 2013 but, of course, didn't play forward the whole time) but we really need to develop some forwards who hit the scoreboard (metaphorically speaking - we have a few too many who can hit it actually when they're supposed to be shooting for goal) more consistently. |
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PyreneesPie 
PyreneesPie
Joined: 22 Aug 2014
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| SuperSwede wrote: |
If on the other hand you cannot substantiate that claim then I would have to regard it as a totally unacceptable slur on one of this club’s absolute legends. In fact I think it is downright insulting. For mine you can criticize Nathan Buckley all you like for his deeds or lack of deeds as a coach and I guess there will never be total consensus on his merits as such. But to suggest this sort of thing is pretty poor particularly as it comes from a bloke who bemoans the fact that he has been attacked on this site and that the moderators have done nothing. It is apparently not OK to personally attack some of the contributors to this site, but it is OK to personally attack the coach. |
Extremely well said. |
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Member 7167
"What Good Fortune For Governments That The People Do Not Think" - Adolf Hitler.
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Location: The Collibran Hideout
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| PyreneesPie wrote: | | SuperSwede wrote: |
If on the other hand you cannot substantiate that claim then I would have to regard it as a totally unacceptable slur on one of this club’s absolute legends. In fact I think it is downright insulting. For mine you can criticize Nathan Buckley all you like for his deeds or lack of deeds as a coach and I guess there will never be total consensus on his merits as such. But to suggest this sort of thing is pretty poor particularly as it comes from a bloke who bemoans the fact that he has been attacked on this site and that the moderators have done nothing. It is apparently not OK to personally attack some of the contributors to this site, but it is OK to personally attack the coach. |
Extremely well said. |
Agree.
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Now Retired - Every Day Is A Saturday |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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Shouldn't this thread be moved to "Other AFL"?
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Well done boys! |
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John Wren 
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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it should be locked and buried.
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Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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stoliboy
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Sydney, NSW
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| John Wren wrote: | | it should be locked and buried. |
Not till we get it to 100 pages like the Cloke thread 
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Sydney Collingwood Supporters Club
http://sydneymagpies.magpies.net/ |
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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Dayne Who ????
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Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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yin-YANG
Joined: 03 Oct 2011
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I think it will turn out well for the Pies and Brions...
I also think that he should have gone to the Copeland - I am sure the Pies will get stuck into him in rnd 1 2015 - send Swan his way to out tatt him!
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Love us or Hate us... we are Collingwood - you can't ignore the Mighty Magpies!!! |
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bwphantom
It's Better to Burn Out Than to Fade Away
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Location: Brisbane QLD
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Beams will enjoy playing in front of crowds of under 20000 along with artifical crowd noise generators. Brisbane are a rabble, and will be for quite sometime.
Leppa is a deluded tool in somehow thinking he was anything more than a fall back coach, sacked after 2015 after they finish 16th.
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All this may be summed up in one word - CHARACTER - and if that is not worth developing, nothing is.
Jock McHale |
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Big T
Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Location: Torino, Italy
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i personally believe the Beams trade will mark the time when fortunes turned in our favour. We won that deal and time will prove it.
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Buon Giorno
Last edited by Big T on Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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The Prototype
Paint my face with a good-for-nothin smile.
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
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Big T
Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Location: Torino, Italy
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| The Prototype wrote: | | Beams really left Collingwood because he wanted to play with the caged Lion they're going to parade around the 'Gabba next year. We couldn't top that one bit. |
Let's hope it's a male lion.
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Buon Giorno |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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| Piesnchess wrote: | | Dayne Who ???? |
It's Dane, Dane Swan.
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Well done boys! |
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