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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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Post subject: Bucks 2018 success already better than Hafey's of 1977 | |
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I read an article in the little paper today (by Mike Gleason I think?) arguing that what Bucks has achieved this year, taking us from 13th last year to the Prelim, especially considering us having the worst injury rate in the whole of the AFL, is already a better achievement than that of Hafey's rise from 12th to the GF in 1977.
I'm not interested in opening up old wounds about Bucks coaching in recent years (let's just agree to disagree on all of that), but in 2018, he is already coach of the year, and has certainly achieved the equal, if not more, than Hafey did back in the old VFL days with a smaller competition. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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It makes sense if you look at this year in isolation, but let's not forget that that was Hafey's first year as coach and he was cleaning up someone else's mess; whereas Bucks, if we're apportioning credit based on results, was also the architect of our fall from premiership contention to cellar-dweller status over the course of 20122017.
Personally I don't think coaches deserve much of either the blame or praise as they get for win-loss ratios and finishing ladder positions (and have always suspected that any good coach who is in charge for a long period of time will oversee periodic rises and falls). For me,it's enough to feel confident that he knows what he's doing and that he's doing a good job, and that perhaps some of the mistakes of past years have been learnt from. _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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David wrote: | It makes sense if you look at this year in isolation, but let's not forget that that was Hafey's first year as coach and he was cleaning up someone else's mess; whereas Bucks, if we're apportioning credit based on results, was also the architect of our fall from premiership contention to cellar dwellers over the course of 20122017. Personally I don't think coaches deserve much of either the blame or praise as they get for win-loss ratios and finishing ladder positions for me,it's enough to feel confident that he knows what he's doing and that he's doing a good job, and that perhaps some of the mistakes of past years have been learnt from. |
Gleason's argument was the opposite. He reckons Hafey benefited from being the new broom with all the excitement of a new approach, whereas Bucks was already the insider. It's a moot point I guess, but either way, Bucks achievement this year has been phenomenal and needs to be widely acknowledged by Magpie supporters. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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The Age is now the little paper?
I think it's hard to compare. We've gone from 13th to a prelim in an 18 team comp, in 76 we finished last in a 12 team comp.
Back then you could buy players, all you needed was the cash of which there was a lot less of than there is now, but no salary cap or draft.
I think Bucks deserves credit for being able to make the changes to himself he needed to, but there's a lot of pieces that have combined here, not just Bucks. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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stui magpie wrote: | The Age is now the little paper?
I think it's hard to compare. We've gone from 13th to a prelim in an 18 team comp, in 76 we finished last in a 12 team comp.
Back then you could buy players, all you needed was the cash of which there was a lot less of than there is now, but no salary cap or draft.
I think Bucks deserves credit for being able to make the changes to himself he needed to, but there's a lot of pieces that have combined here, not just Bucks. |
My error...thought I read it in the Hun.
As to your last sentence, you are absolutely right, but considering all the crap heaped on Bucks in recent years, being held responsible for our failures, it seems only reasonable that he get (most of) the credit for this year's phenomenal achievements. |
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5 from the wing on debut
Joined: 27 May 2016
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RudeBoy wrote: | stui magpie wrote: | The Age is now the little paper?
I think it's hard to compare. We've gone from 13th to a prelim in an 18 team comp, in 76 we finished last in a 12 team comp.
Back then you could buy players, all you needed was the cash of which there was a lot less of than there is now, but no salary cap or draft.
I think Bucks deserves credit for being able to make the changes to himself he needed to, but there's a lot of pieces that have combined here, not just Bucks. |
My error...thought I read it in the Hun.
As to your last sentence, you are absolutely right, but considering all the crap heaped on Bucks in recent years, being held responsible for our failures, it seems only reasonable that he get (most of) the credit for this year's phenomenal achievements. |
If that's not an open invitation to reopen the Buckley debate from years past I don't know what is. I am letting it go through to the keeper though. |
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Harrysz
Joined: 15 Oct 2001 Location: Melbourne
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Not to detract from Bucks, who's done a might job this year, but Hafey got Collingwood to the Grand Final in 1977 and would've won that flag if Carmen hadn't had a brain fade.
Let Bucks get us to the Grand Final and then we'll talk. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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RudeBoy wrote: | stui magpie wrote: | The Age is now the little paper?
I think it's hard to compare. We've gone from 13th to a prelim in an 18 team comp, in 76 we finished last in a 12 team comp.
Back then you could buy players, all you needed was the cash of which there was a lot less of than there is now, but no salary cap or draft.
I think Bucks deserves credit for being able to make the changes to himself he needed to, but there's a lot of pieces that have combined here, not just Bucks. |
My error...thought I read it in the Hun.
As to your last sentence, you are absolutely right, but considering all the crap heaped on Bucks in recent years, being held responsible for our failures, it seems only reasonable that he get (most of) the credit for this year's phenomenal achievements. |
Thats all assuming that not being able to get deep into the finals with those brilliant players was acceptable. It wasnt, of course. |
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Pies2016
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
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As Stui said, its just not apples for apples ( paraphrasing )
Both great achievements in their own right because they both entered that successful year without much belief behind them.
It all reminds me of one of the great calendar quotes success has many fathers but failure is an orphan . Not even sure why I wrote that 😳 |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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In Hine we trust
Quote: | NATHAN Buckley wasnt the only man under the blowtorch at Collingwood last season.
When the Magpies campaign hit the skids, sparking a searing club review, the claws came out for the Collingwood recruiting department.
And for a period, it was unclear whether list chief Derek Hine would remain at the club.
There was tonnes of criticism about the call to let-go some premiership heroes, some of the bold trade moves which were yet to pay off, and left-field draft choices.
Who the heck was Brayden Sier anyway, we all thought mid last year.
And when their main move in last years trade period was to hand over a future second-round draft pick for Sam Murray, an unknown back pocket off Sydneys rookie list, radio talk back went into meltdown.
Hine, the man who handpicked the 2010 premiership list, was under the pump in the nightly news bulletins.
But, 12 months on, as the Magpies prepare to take down Richmond on Friday night for a shot at the Grand Final, the tide of public opinion has turned significantly in favour of many of those contentious recruiting calls.
Weve known Collingwoods top shelf including Scott Pendlebury and Steele Sidebottom is as good as anyone, but the beauty about the Pies year has surely been the growth form the mid-tier and lesser types.
The C-Graders, who have become A-Graders.
And many of them were still Hine finds. In this 2018 Collingwood resurgence, the former fireman is the forgotten man.
Greater Western Sydney discard Will Hoskin-Elliott is the clubs equal leading goal kicker, Tom Phillips (pick No.5, Tom Langdon (No.65) and Josh Thomas (No.75) were value pickups late in the draft, Brayden Maynard (pick No.30) looks a steal, and Sier (No.32) has suddenly become a crucial onball cog.
Sier was a bloke who came from nowhere, playing only two TAC Cup games, but Hine and his lieutenant Matt Rendell saw the makings of a midfield beast.
The Pies insisted on Jack Crisp from Brisbane, tipping the Dayne Beams deal in the Pies favour, and Brodie Grundy (pick No.1 and Jordan de Goey (No.5) are genuine superstars of the game.
Running machine Adam Treloar, who cost the best part of two first-round draft picks, helped power the Pies home in the last quarter against the Giants.
Levi Greenwood and Jeremy Howe, who were also both traded-in, will be pivotal to stopping Richmond on Friday night, and the Taylor Adams for Heath Shaw swap was also a big win-win, as much as the Shaw loss hurt at the time.
Perhaps the list wasnt as messed up as it was thought, at the time.
Crucially for Hine, when it came to the crunch in last years club review, footy boss Geoff Walsh played a big part in saving the talent experts skin.
Walsh knew Hine had one of the best eyes for talent in the game, and shifted him from the list chief gig back to national recruiting manager.
It might have been a kick in the guts at the time, but the move was designed to get Hine back to what he does best and thats find elite talent in the junior competitions.
So the deck chairs were shuffled, and Collingwood is thrilled with the moves since new list boss Ned Guy took over, welcoming Rising Star winner Jaidyn Stephenson (pick No.6) as well as rookie pair Brody Mihocek and Flynn Appelby.
Its added a much-needed lick of cream to the Collingwood cake, but the Pies would suggest the bulk of the talent was already in place.
COLLINGWOOD RECRUITING SINCE 2010 PREMIERSHIP
2011
Trades: Jamie Elliott, Marty Clark, Peter Yagmoor
Draft: 50 Jackson Paine, 65 Corey Gault, 67 Jarrod Witts
Rookies: Lachlan Smith, Marley Williams, Trent Stubbs, Daniel Farmer, Caolan Mooney, Michael Hartley
2012
Free agents: Quinten Lynch, Clinton Young, Jordan Russell
Draft: 18 Brodie Grundy, 19 Ben Kennedy, 20 Tim Broomhead, 38 Jackson Ramsay
Rookies: Kyle Martin, Sam Dwyer, Adam Oxley, Jack Frost, Ben Hudson, Peter Yagmoor, Ben Richmond
Lost: Jordan Russell to Carlton, Chris Dawes to Melbourne, Sharrod Wellingham to West Coast, Tom Young to Western Bulldogs
Twelve clubs passed on Brodie Grundy.
2013
Trades: Taylor Adams, Patrick Karnezis, Jesse White
Free agent: Tony Armstrong
Draft: 6 Matt Scharenberg, 10 Nathan Freeman, 65 Tom Langdon, 77 Jonathan Marsh, 87 Sam Dwyer, 92 Adam Oxley
Rookie: Corey Gault
Lost: Dale Thomas to Carlton (free agent), Heath Shaw to GWS, Jackson Paine to Brisbane
2014
Trades: Jack Crisp, Levi Greenwood, Travis Varcoe
Draft: 5 Jordan De Goey, 9 Darcy Moore, 30 Brayden Maynard, 48 Matthew Goodyear
Rookies: Michael Manteit, Brenden Abbott, Tony Armstrong, Mason Cox
Lost: Dayne Beams to Brisbane, Heritier Lumumba to Melbourne
2015
Trades: Jeremy Howe, Adam Treloar, James Aish
Draft: 32 Brayden Sier, 58 Tom Phillips, 63 Rupert Wills, 65 Ben Crocker
Rookies: Lachie Keeffe, Josh Smith, Josh Thomas, Tim Golds, Darrean Wyatt
Lost: Paul Seedsman to Adelaide, Ben Kennedy to Melbourne, Nathan Freeman to St Kilda
Nathan Buckley with Magpie recruits Travis Varcoe, Levi Greenwood and Jack Crisp. Picture: Rob Leeson
2016
Free agents: Daniel Wells, Chris Mayne
Draft: 30 Sam McLarty, 35 Callum Brown,
Lost: Jarrod Witts to Gold Coast, Travis Cloke to Western Bulldogs, Marley Williams to North Melbourne, Nathan Brown to St Kilda (free agent)
Rookies: Mitch McCarthy, Henry Schade, Liam Mackie, Max Lynch
2017
Trades: Will Hoskin-Elliott, Sam Murray
Draft: 6 Jaidyn Stephenson, 39 Nathan Murphy, 50 Tyler Brown, 50 Kayle Kirby, 57 Josh Daicos,
Rookies: Flynn Appleby, Brody Mihocek, Adam Oxley, Jack Madgen (category B).
Lost: Jack Frost to Brisbane, Lachie Keeffe to GWS (free agent) |
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/collingwood/collingwoods-recruiting-draft-calls-paying-dividends-in-preliminary-final-run/news-story/294d2fab625c97175cb5f0947a2ee64f _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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BazBoy
Joined: 11 Sep 2014
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Comparison,s are odious _________________ I'm not arguing--just explaining why i am right |
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uncanny
Joined: 04 Mar 2014 Location: Castlemaine
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I beg to differ. The comparison is not odious but good to reflect upon.
Both rises up the ladder were significant and unexpected.
In both cases the playing groups didn't change much apart from the influx of a first year player that had a great impact. In 77 it was Ricky Barham and this year it has been Jayden Stephenson.
in Hafey's case the improvement was due to getting fair dinkum about training for fitness and toughness as well as a breath of fresh air. The past was stifling the club and Tom was the first non Collingwood person to coach them. The symbolism was there. Shape up or ship out. The players bought in and nearly got the flag as a result.
The comparison to this year is interesting. The head coach is the same but it was interesting to read Brayden Maynard last week in interview heaping praise on Justin Longmuir, new to the club this year, for being the driver of implementing a defensive plan. In Brayden's mind this was a "shambles" in previous years. This, together with Buddah Hocking and the system review has led to a coaching change which I believe is equivalent to Hafey coming in. The "breath of fresh air" this year hasn't been the decobwebing of tradition and photos on the walls but a renewed "where in it together, "nothing else matters mantra". Nathan has lost the "Harry high shorts" head prefect noble soldier persona and instead is walking side by side with his players as a big brother, father figure. it's on a par I reckon with the climb of 77 but it promises to be even better. Exciting times ahead.,,, _________________ woodsmen rule |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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RudeBoy wrote: | stui magpie wrote: | The Age is now the little paper?
I think it's hard to compare. We've gone from 13th to a prelim in an 18 team comp, in 76 we finished last in a 12 team comp.
Back then you could buy players, all you needed was the cash of which there was a lot less of than there is now, but no salary cap or draft.
I think Bucks deserves credit for being able to make the changes to himself he needed to, but there's a lot of pieces that have combined here, not just Bucks. |
My error...thought I read it in the Hun.
As to your last sentence, you are absolutely right, but considering all the crap heaped on Bucks in recent years, being held responsible for our failures, it seems only reasonable that he get (most of) the credit for this year's phenomenal achievements. |
Gleeson of the Age is also a Colingwood supporter. _________________ “I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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Here is Gleeson's article:
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/4-points-best-comeback-since-tom-hafey-was-a-pie-20180916-p5044d.html
When I read it a couple of days ago, my gut reaction was that it was absurd. Gleeson seems to be ignoring the huge fluctutations up and down the ladder that happen nowadays. In the 80s, for a whole decade, Hawthorn were stuck near the top of the ladder and St. Kilda stuck at the bottom of the ladder. There was no social mobility.
Gleeson claimed today is arguably a greater achievement because there are 18 teams. No! That makes it a lesser achievement. It's not how many equally mediocre teams there are that makes things difficult; it's how big the gap is between teams. 18 teams just dilutes the talent pool, so every team is mediocre or worse.
Of course, maybe there were also helpful circumstances for Hafey's achievement that we've glossed over for four decades. |
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MagpiesTheGreat
Joined: 01 Dec 2014
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The conclusion will be very obvious in two weeks time: Pies win the premiership!!! |
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