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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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I respect your opinions swoop, always have. However, the fact that it took until your 3rd or 4th last sentence of that long dissertation to acknowledge Buckley's achievements this year, is reflective of a continuing reticence by far too many critics of Bucks, to find in their heart, stomach or throat, the ability to publicly thank Bucks for his super efforts this year.
For the record, it's not about anyone boasting that they were right and others were wrong. Furthermore, I've got no problem with those who questioned Bucks coaching in previous years, particularly given our poor performances, but at the end of the day, the past is the past. My beef is with those who are clearly uncomfortable in enthusiastically acknowledging his fantastic achievements this year in getting us into the top 4.
I would have hoped that all of us, regardless of previous attitudes, would be screaming at the top of our voices about what a great coach we have and cheering him on as he leads us into a finals campaign.
Last edited by RudeBoy on Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MagpieBat
Joined: 27 Nov 2010
Location: Brooding in a cave... somewhere... maybe...
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| Post subject: Re: The 2018 Nathan Buckley Debate | |
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| FrankieGoesToCollingwood wrote: | | MagpieBat wrote: | | FrankieGoesToCollingwood wrote: | Not sure why we haven't had one this year after having a part 1 and 2 in 2017?
Especially look forward to contributions from Krakouer Magic, Thompsoc and Beast, to name a few.
Not looking for a shit fight. I'm genuinely curious to see if the people, who so passionately wanted him gone, have changed their view? |
And yet one is what you'll probably start. Sad. I was looking forward to an early night...
FYI, there is a reason why one of those individuals no longer frequents this establishment. And it has nothing to do with pride... |
Yes, there was always potential for that but I think it's fairly subdued, so far. The fact we're coming off an impressive win and are in a great position might have something to do with it. Hmm, I'd love to know who that individual was and why? Any chance of a pm?  |
I cannot divulge classified information contained in the classified report, because it's classified. But I can tell you that the classified information in the classified report was classified by the Department of Corrections.
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I am vengeance. I am the night. I am MagpieBat.
Last edited by MagpieBat on Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Piethagoras' Theorem 
the hypotenuse, is always a cakewalk
Joined: 29 May 2006
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Geez mate, a plain "no" would've sufficed! 
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Formally frankiboy and FrankieGoesToCollingwood. |
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Albert Parker
Joined: 13 Dec 2012
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| swoop42 wrote: | Given some people have shown no ability whatsoever to offer constructive criticism on the coach or even the club in recent seasons and have simply been guided by nothing more than blind faith it's hilarious that these same people are now pumping out their chest on the back of our return to finals after 5 years like it was always a fait accompli when we were sitting at 5-10 in 2017.
If people are happy to deduce that this season is justification for Buckley's retention last year (I agree) and that he is the right man for the job moving forward (I now do) then I can only imagine people are able to concede also that the past 4 years were an example of a coach who still had much to learn and improve in as did the club as a whole.
Basically you can't have it both ways and decide that only this season provides "factual" evidence to the quality of Buckley's coaching and dismiss the concerns of the past as "opinion" not based in reality.
The real unsung hero as far as I'm concerned is Peter Murphy.
It was Murphy in my opinion who gave voice to the disillusioned Collingwood fan concerned about our continued poor on field performances and the professional standards of some employed by the club.
He had the standing within the community and courage to challenge McGuire and to McGuire's credit (and perhaps self preservation) he placated those concerns by allowing Murphy to conduct a thorough review of the football club.
At the end of his review and in stark contrast to those who continually parrot the club can do no wrong his findings lead to:
1. The removal of CEO Gary Pert and a proper process to find his successor (McGuire apparently just wanted to install Lethlean)
2. The expansion of our assistant coaching panel to support Buckley.
3. New list manager hired. Hine released from the role to concentrate solely on recruitment.
4. High performance manager replaced.
5. Position created for Nick Maxwell.
While it was always a wait and see approach and one we looked to replicate from the Richmond example of 12 months earlier it's fair to say the recommendations from Murphy and yes Walsh to retain Buckley are looking at present to be a spectacular success.
Still let's not pretend now everything was running at it's optimum in the preceding seasons and to me this year only reinforces mine and others frustration over it.
We have seen injuries used as an excuse for our lacklustre results of the past few seasons and yet we currently sit 3rd with an injury list far and away greater than any proceeding season. Injuries yes were a hindrance to not being a genuine premiership chance but top 8 I'm not so convinced.
Plenty of people were happy to lay excuses for the coach and club at the feet of Hine and the state of our list and yet here we are sitting 3rd with a long long injury list and with only 1 new recruit in Stephenson making a meaningful contribution to our ladder position in 2018.
Are people still questioning the ability of Hine now?
Yes young players will improve with experience and if enough collectively do it in one year then you can see real improvement from one season to the next but you lose experience along the way also whether by injury or retirement while others due to age aren't as good as they once were.
So is the improvement we have witnessed this season all down to the natural progression of young players or an individuals own desire to push themselves to greater heights or is it down to coaching, the refinements made to structures over the summer period, improved game day instruction or healthy player relationships.
With our injury list I doubt it all comes down to talent and with the real talent still remaining out on the field it's not all coaching either so I guess it's a little from column A, B, C and D.
For mine your perception of Buckley all comes down to how you've viewed our talent collective in a season in relation to the final result.
While others are free to disagree I'll always maintain our talent level was on par with the Western Bulldogs in 2016 and they were able to achieve what they did with a similar injury profile simply because of the influence of Beveridge and his ability to elevate them above themselves.
For me this is the first time under Buckley I've felt the same way, that we've maximised the potential contained within our list, we've got the right structures out on the field in place that are allowing this individual talent to shine through and this coupled with the overall coaching performance has elevated our position above what you could reasonably expect given the availability of players.
More than happy to grade Buckley an A+ for this season but fair to say it's taken longer than I naively expected when I supported the succession plan.
I'm guilty your honor of wavering about my initial instinct that Buckley had the ability to become a fine coach but just like 2009 as now I'll always voice a strong opinion if I believe it's in the best interests of the club and will do so ahead of any one individual within it.
Without people daring to question, Peter Murphy would have remained silent.
I wonder where that would have got us? |
A fair summation. I too had meant to mention Murphy when acknowledging praise for Walsh. I associated Walsh more with the retention of Buckley (and to this thread in particular), but think Murphy was integral in standing up to Ed (who would have jumped at Lethlean - not exactly the man to lead cultural upheaval) and consequently people within the club would now feel better about due process being had and that things like the Gubby appointment (which Buckley would have hated and which proved problematic on and off the field) would not have come to pass to destabilise things. It's fair that Murphy has therefore had a significant positive impact on the vibe around the club too.
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One team, one dream - the Pies and this year's premiership |
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Albert Parker
Joined: 13 Dec 2012
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| RudeBoy wrote: | I respect your opinions swoop, always have. However, the fact that it took until your 3rd or 4th last sentence of that long dissertation to acknowledge Buckley's achievements this year, is reflective of a continuing reticence by far too many critics of Bucks, to find in their heart, stomach or throat, the ability to publicly thank Bucks for his super efforts this year.
For the record, it's not about anyone boasting that they were right and others were wrong. Furthermore, I've got no problem with those who questioned Bucks coaching in previous years, particularly given our poor performances, but at the end of the day, the past is the past. My beef is with those who are clearly uncomfortable in enthusiastically acknowledging his fantastic achievements this year in getting us into the top 4.
I would have hoped that all of us, regardless of previous attitudes, would be screaming at the top of our voices about what a great coach we have and cheering him on as he leads us into a finals campaign. |
Doesn't Swoop make some other valid points though as well as acknowledge Buckley positively in his dissertation?
Must positive acknowledgement of Buckley be the first or only point made?
Swoop has provided a balanced perspective. Others, as you note, a lot less.
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One team, one dream - the Pies and this year's premiership |
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eddiesmith
Lets get ready to Rumble
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Location: Lexus Centre
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| Whilst we will finish top 4, we go into a finals campaign knowing we cannot beat 6/7 teams in the finals so our best hope is survive Perth, get Melbourne week 2 and get pumped by Richmond in the PF. Would be a remarkable achievement to make a Prelim having only beaten 1 top 8 side all year! |
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roar
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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You're such a phuckwit.
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kill for collingwood!
Last edited by roar on Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| Albert Parker wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | I respect your opinions swoop, always have. However, the fact that it took until your 3rd or 4th last sentence of that long dissertation to acknowledge Buckley's achievements this year, is reflective of a continuing reticence by far too many critics of Bucks, to find in their heart, stomach or throat, the ability to publicly thank Bucks for his super efforts this year.
For the record, it's not about anyone boasting that they were right and others were wrong. Furthermore, I've got no problem with those who questioned Bucks coaching in previous years, particularly given our poor performances, but at the end of the day, the past is the past. My beef is with those who are clearly uncomfortable in enthusiastically acknowledging his fantastic achievements this year in getting us into the top 4.
I would have hoped that all of us, regardless of previous attitudes, would be screaming at the top of our voices about what a great coach we have and cheering him on as he leads us into a finals campaign. |
Doesn't Swoop make some other valid points though as well as acknowledge Buckley positively in his dissertation?
Must positive acknowledgement of Buckley be the first or only point made?
Swoop has provided a balanced perspective. Others, as you note, a lot less. |
Swoop certainly makes a lot of sense in what he says, as he usually does. For the record, I agree with much of it. My point, however, was simply to point out that their seems to be a lingering hesitancy, by many of my fellow Nicksters, to publicly congratulate Bucks for what he's achieved for us so far in 2018. |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
I think Bucks deserves serious congratulations for what he's done this year.
Those calling for his head previously based on performance had a valid point, those who were adamant that he couldn't coach were clearly wrong.
The original intention of the succession was for a raw Bucks to be supported by MM for a few years. MM reneged on that and we then had a revolving door of footy operations managers, so Bucks did what people do in that situation, knuckle down, take it on yourself and try to make it happen on your own.
That approach clearly didn't work but, as smart people do, he learned from it.
When the review came through, he got some direct feedback both positive and areas for improvement.
To his credit, he was on board with the changes he needed to make and to the clubs credit, they made the changes that were needed to enable him to succeed. 1 without the other wouldn't work, it needed a combination of elements to take us from where we were to where we are
So we now have a coach with several years of experience and learning, supported properly with the right people in the right roles and the results are apparent. Richmond did it first, we took it up a notch and set the benchmark . We don't have to win the flag for this year to be a success, but I won't say no if it happens.
Buckley is now a very good coach. He wasn't previously, but the ability and potential was always there. Unlike his playing career, he's had to do this the hard way and that will hold him in good stead.
Congrats to Bucks and congrats to Collingwood. We're back in the finals and have a squad that can compete for a premiership. Go Pies.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Culprit wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | Culprit wrote: | | Buckley has change the way he coaches and now listens and also delegates responsibility to others in accordance with the review at the end of last year. The assistant coaches deserve the plaudits as well. Those like me who bagged Buckley prior to this year opinions were correct because if we were wrong the club would not have had a review and nothing would have changed. For those standing up on a mantle saying "I told you so" also refuse to admit that they were wrong as well. Things had to change and they did and now everyone is happy as we are back winning. |
I haven’t checked the post history, so my memory may deceive me, but I think you wanted him sacked.... yet apparently you were still right. Ok. |
I am fine to admit I wanted him gone, sacked removed or whatever as he's performance wasn't up to it in my view. I've never accepted mediocrity. After the 2017 season the club held a review as they thought there was issues as well. The club then made several recommendations regarding the Coach and assistants and they were implemented. The two main ones are clear, Buckley's way or the Highway was a failure as was his lack of communication (listening to others) and delegation was an issue. The pro Buckley brigade from last year said there was no problem and I put it to you if there was no problem then why hold a review? Now everything's turned around everyone's on the same page but the "I told you so" brigade refuse to admit we had issues.
“Be humble to see your mistakes, courageous to admit them, and wise enough to correct them.” |
I think you’ll find that people like RB had reservations, which were justified. But they made the right call. A major rebuild of premiership team in declne takes time, the players were clearly right behind him, bad drafting luck had played a part, etc.
The “I never accept mediocrity” line is exactly the one that doomed Carlton and used to doom Richmond until they backed Hardwick (one final in seven years). You get mediocrity by jerking the knee and causing disruption as the business is ready to turn. You get excellence by accepting that in an equalization system, rebuilding takes time and patience.
Your last sentence quotation is ironic, given your “I was right all along until he changed to prove I was right” position.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Pies2016
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
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All I will say is, there is going to be a lot of hard work and good will undone if we don’t make the eight in 2019.
I have never had a bad word to say about Bucks coaching but whatever happens this year ( unless it’s an unlikely flag ) won’t stand for anything if he can’t achieve something similar in 2019. I kept my powder dry when he wasn’t travelling well, so I’m also going to keep my powder dry until Bucks proves he can repeat this sort of year in 2019 |
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Cakewalk
For a minute there I lost myself , I lost myself
Joined: 30 Mar 2003
Location: Australia
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Swoop42 nailed it.
_________________
"Are you an angry man? Are you envious? Do you get envious? I have competition in me. I want no one else to succeed. I hate most people. At times, I look at people and I see nothing worth liking. " |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Cakewalk wrote: | | Swoop42 nailed it. |
Swoop was never a headbanger about this subject, and his position was always broadly reasonable. Anyone, Buckley included, would probably say that he had to undergo a learning curve and he made mistakes. It was also reasonable to wonder whether it would ever turn, after four patchy years.
But those who were arrogantly certain that .buckley cant coach, that he should be called Suckley, that he has no leadership qualities, isn’t made of the right stuff, that giving him time was accepting mediocrity, etc etc, - these folks have a chance to reflect that we all get it wrong, and each time we do is an opportunity to reflect and learn and become better.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
I think Bucks deserves serious congratulations for what he's done this year.
Those calling for his head previously based on performance had a valid point, those who were adamant that he couldn't coach were clearly wrong.
The original intention of the succession was for a raw Bucks to be supported by MM for a few years. MM reneged on that and we then had a revolving door of footy operations managers, so Bucks did what people do in that situation, knuckle down, take it on yourself and try to make it happen on your own.
That approach clearly didn't work but, as smart people do, he learned from it.
When the review came through, he got some direct feedback both positive and areas for improvement.
To his credit, he was on board with the changes he needed to make and to the clubs credit, they made the changes that were needed to enable him to succeed. 1 without the other wouldn't work, it needed a combination of elements to take us from where we were to where we are
So we now have a coach with several years of experience and learning, supported properly with the right people in the right roles and the results are apparent. Richmond did it first, we took it up a notch and set the benchmark . We don't have to win the flag for this year to be a success, but I won't say no if it happens.
Buckley is now a very good coach. He wasn't previously, but the ability and potential was always there. Unlike his playing career, he's had to do this the hard way and that will hold him in good stead.
Congrats to Bucks and congrats to Collingwood. We're back in the finals and have a squad that can compete for a premiership. Go Pies. |
Well said stui. |
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Redlight
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
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| Mugwump wrote: | | Cakewalk wrote: | | Swoop42 nailed it. |
Swoop was never a headbanger about this subject, and his position was always broadly reasonable. Anyone, Buckley included, would probably say that he had to undergo a learning curve and he made mistakes. It was also reasonable to wonder whether it would ever turn, after four patchy years.
But those who were arrogantly certain that .buckley cant coach, that he should be called Suckley, that he has no leadership qualities, isn’t made of the right stuff, that giving him time was accepting mediocrity, etc etc, - these folks have a chance to reflect that we all get it wrong, and each time we do is an opportunity to reflect and learn and become better. |
It was the utter certainty of some that I found most irksome. We really can't know from this distance so I'd personally prefer people to serve a side of humility with their main dish of rampant speculation.
Mind you, there were probably less than a handful of posters like that, it's just that a few relentless posters can post a lot of posts! |
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