Immigration

[Jezza]

This thread is entering uncharted territory

[stui magpie]

Moving right away from the topic of Jezza's dick pics, interesting article pro immigration.

[Dave The Man]

Welfare has gone up because we taking more Immgrants

[stui magpie]

[pietillidie]

[Mugwump]

I see no evidence of “hysteria”, just as there is no evidence of “panic”. This type of overblown language is just used to denigrate honest disagreement.

The question about immigration, which no one seems to answer, is what the right rate and total scale should be, and why. It seems to a religious conviction that we must always have more of it at a very high level. Yet there is littl evidence that mass immigration makes any society on earth appreciably happier, more courteous, or nicer for the assset-poor. It’s even debatable whether it makes that society more open, given the polarization and rancour that seem to have multiplied in its wake.

Everything in economics says that large scale immigration of relatively low-skilled and/or capital-poor people will put upward pressure on housing and public services, and downward pressure on low skilled wages. It is good for the rich and skilled, lousy for the poor.

[stui magpie]

^

OK, but flip that and how does it work?

The majority of our immigration is skilled migrants, not refugees. They add economic value but I'm unconvinced it's enough to counter the effects of population growth.

[Mugwump]

I’m not at all convinced that Asustralia has been importing anywhere near 350,000 skilled people each year. Most of the immigrants I meet in oz are not doing skilled jobs.

To the extent that they are, one wonders why Australia could not have trained its own citizens to do these jobs when we have graduates working in low paid employment. It is always easier and cheaper to bring in skilled immigrants. I acknowledge this is a different point, but it’s also indicative of a bias toward immigration rather than domestic development.

The best arguments are probably age demographics (which is overplayed, I think, but nonetheless essentially sound), cultural ventilation, and genuinely scarce skills in those industries that we could not have predicted demand (health care doesn’t apply!). But I think the reasons are mostly being found to support the policy, rather than vice-Versa.

I’m not at all opposed to immigration, at rates close to 50k or so per annum, whiCh was our historic average until ca 1995. But 350k seems to me very unhealthy, is ocially for the young and the poor.

[stui magpie]

I have no data on this, just checking thoughts. My impression is that it's mostly skilled migration, but different people have different definitions of skilled.

Get up to FNQ or Darwin and see all the European chicks behind the bar. Up in Darwin, I had to serve as translator once for an older bloke who wanted a Brandy and the chick behind the jump couldn't understand him. She had NFI even when I said it so I had to scan the bar , find a bottle of Brandy and point it out to her.

[Mugwump]

Some of those will probably be gap year kids improving their English on temporary visas, and if so, good on them. If they’re permanent migration, it seems odd.

In theory, it should raise the bar, but i’m not sure it works that way In practice. It seems to just promote the creation of an underclass within the uneducated indigenous population. With two of us working and three kids, we always had a once a week house cleaner in the Uk. Over 14 years, we had three Brits and three Poles. The Poles were all hard working and honest. The three Brits were not. The highlight with one British lady was the night we came home unexpectedly early, having left her babysitting the children, to find her and boyfriend smoking joints on the couch and the children running riot.

[pietillidie]

The idea that immigration increases the local underclass is considered a 'lump of labour' fallacy; for it to impact significantly there would need to be a systemic shock.

I'm on my phone, but it looks like the immigration intake is roughly 60% skilled, 30% family, and <10% humanitarian, of a total of 150,000-200,000, depending on the year.

[Mugwump]

[roar]

I don't think there can be much argument against immigration being good for the economy. The problem lies with incompetent governments not investing in infrastructure to match population increase so the average Joe is against further people in an already overcrowded city. There also hasn't been enough done to direct immigration to rural centres.

Of course, if the average punter wasn't so stupid/greedy perhaps the governments would be forced to act responsibly, rather than indulging in circus tricks.

[stui magpie]

^

Maybe more places should take a leaf out of Shepparton's book.

[HAL]

Describe your surroundings.