Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index
 The RulesThe Rules FAQFAQ
   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch 
Log inLog in RegisterRegister
 
Australian History X

Users browsing this topic:0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 0 Guests
Registered Users: None

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index -> Victoria Park Tavern
 
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:06 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/rendering-of-serena-williams-plays-to-the-delinquency-of-our-thinking-20180915-p503zt.html
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
thesoretoothsayer 



Joined: 26 Apr 2017


PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:34 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

K wrote:
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/rendering-of-serena-williams-plays-to-the-delinquency-of-our-thinking-20180915-p503zt.html


Interesting article attempting to give some nuance to the Knight kerfuffle.
However, I don't think we should (further) filter our thoughts and opinions based upon American history or culture:

"The embarrassment is that a committee of people, with their collective experience and with time to review its American perception..."
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:15 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

While Im often wary of a tendency of (particularly younger) Australian progressives to adopt US causes as our own a kind of colonisation of political correctness and while its true that this case has many of those hallmarks, I think its important to remember that we also live in a country with a history of black dispossession and dehumanising caricature. Still, Im hesitant to condemn Knight here because I dont think its entirely clear where the line is between some kind of normal accentuation of physical characteristics and a depiction that either plays into racial stereotypes or evokes racist tropes. It would be interesting to see what the ACMA find if the cartoon is submitred for review; does anyone recall their judgement of the (much more overtly racist) Bill Leak cartoon?

An interesting but related point touched on in the article above: does anyone else think it odd that The Herald Sun, surely the most mainstream of all daily newspapers, periodically choose to portray themselves as irreverent iconoclasts and the last bastions of subversive thought? Id get that if they were Viz or Charlie Hebdo, but this is the same newspaper that often present themselves as a moral authority, and are just as prone to wringing their hands in indignation. Can you really credibly do both?

This paradox seems a common trope among Murdoch tabloids around the world: their occasional seemingly gung-ho defence of freedom of speech seems far less about a commitment to any kind of social libertarian philosophy than a reflexive response to criticism of the publication or the views espoused by it.

Perhaps theyre the archetypal example of the insult that members of the alt-right level at left identitarians: that is, crybullies.

_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger  
David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:08 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Heres a fairly nuanced critique of the drawing:

https://insidestory.org.au/what-you-see-is-what-you-get/

Quote:
This week Herald Sun cartoonist Mark Knight, whose drawing of tennis player Serena Williams at the US Open final has rapidly gained infamy around the planet, explained himself in similar vein. I drew her as an African-American woman, he has been quoted as saying. Shes powerfully built. She wears these outrageous costumes when she plays tennis. Shes interesting to draw. I drew her as she is, as an African-American woman.

To him its like John Howards big lower lip, Bob Hawkes hair or Tony Abbotts red speedos. Cartoonists, particularly Australian ones, take no prisoners when roasting public figures, and why should an African American woman get special treatment?

Many have pointed out the context: a history of demeaning representations of African Americans, and indeed of Indigenous Australians. It has been noted in the United States that Knights drawing of Williams is Sambo-like. But the world is not America. Lets give Knight the benefit of the doubt when he insists he was unaware his work sat inside that odious genre.

Theres something else about his cartoon. Caricatures are supposed to draw on physical features of a person to elaborate on something in the personality or public persona. Hawkes hair and his vanity, Paul Keating the undertaker with that ghostly pallor, Malcolm Turnbull, hooded eyes in top hat, the out-of-touch toff, Abbott in red speedos, all clumsy testosterone, boyish and out of control.

But if your caricature of a black person is simply an exaggerated account of their blackness the stereotypical big lips, flat nose and frizzy hair then youre not trying very hard. Knight says he finds her interesting to draw, but thats hard to believe because the cartoon doesnt really look like her. Instead, as he indicated (twice), it was an African-American woman. And his previous renderings of African gang members in Melbourne, which have also caused controversy, have had no facial features at all.

They say people have trouble distinguishing between people of another race. It seems Knight does. Ill draw her big and black, thatll do, theyll know who I mean.

_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger  
HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:13 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

OK I will say "people have trouble distinguishing between people of another race" to you.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website  
stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:03 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree that the cartoon doesn't look like her. It's actually quite detailed. The outfit she was wearing, how she had her hair tied, the olive skin tone and blonde pony tail of her opponent.

Drawing her in a squatting position throwing a tantrum exaggerates both the stockiness of her physique and her facial features and the emphasis I take is he was trying to depict her throwing a toddler tantrum. I'm not even sure Americans are familiar with the term "Spit the dummy", as they call a dummy a pacifier.

_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:26 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Timothy Boyle wrote:
...
It might have been possible to sympathise with Mark Knights depiction of Williams as a bad loser if, at some point, his publication only tried to acknowledge history. Perhaps the intention of his cartoon was not to deny history, but the intention of defending it was.

Nobody should be free to deny the testimony of the past and expect to also be free from ridicule. It would be a denial of history to say that it was incredible for a publication to defend that cartoon, so instead I should say that it was embarrassing.
...

The embarrassment is that a committee of people, with their collective experience and with time to review its American perception, chose not to acknowledge that the code exists, but rather to weaponise the image against political correctness. The smallness of that decision is really something to behold.
...

Maybe in place of "embarrassing", put "shameful" or "pitiful".
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
thesoretoothsayer 



Joined: 26 Apr 2017


PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:04 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

caricature noun

a picture, description, or imitation of a person in which certain striking characteristics are exaggerated in order to create a comic or grotesque effect.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:04 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Brent's argument (in the article posted above) is not that Williams shouldn't be caricatured, it's that the caricature is of a generic African-American female trope, and not her as a person.

That's a fine distinction, and one is of course entitled to disagree with that conclusion, as Stui does. But I think it's nonetheless important to talk about these things, as images (like words) are a form of communication, and they do have real-world impact. Even if some of those criticisms turn out to be over-the-top, I think it would have been better for Knight and The Herald Sun to consider what was being expressed and think about where it's coming from, rather than go straight for the defensive option of complaining about "PC gone mad".

_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger  
stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:31 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it's PC gone mad, I've said a couple of times, from a US viewpoint I can understand the reaction.

Problem is, their viewpoint is formed by their culture and history which they don't understand is unique to them.

_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:32 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

As Boyle says, whatever the excuse for the cartoon, there is no excuse for the Knight & Hun reaction to criticism.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:36 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Back on Australian history, I found this an interesting article.

https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/history-wars/2002/06/the-extinction-of-the-australian-pygmies/?fbclid=IwAR19SbCqxZh2Td8owkZHdaeHWNIxPbzBmprxNGbM7fLq344WdJv4kNv07rs

The premise is there was 3 different waves of migration to Australia during the last ice age, the first being a pygmy group who resembled Africans, then 2 others, and that this has been airbrushed out of history to support Aboriginal rights.

I've got no interest in the argument that the Aboriginals don't deserve recognition as the first people, as regardless what happened before white colonisation, they were the ones who were here and had been here for a long time.

Now, searching for info on these pygmies comes up with a surprising amount of info, and no surprise it's conflicting. Allegedly the anthropological premises in the 2002 article have been debunked, yet there seems plenty of anecdotal evidence of these "negritos" or pygmies around the Cairns /Kuranda area. Google the name of the Aboriginal tribe around Kuranda, Djabuganjdji, and you get several links relating to pygmies.

As above, I don't think it changes anything if true, but I find the thought interesting.

_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:33 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

I read that years ago I think I might have even posted it here and thought it was interesting too. Trouble is Windschuttle has a huge agenda on this subject and cant necessarily be taken as an impartial observer in any sense (though, to be fair, much the same could be said for many of those who would reject the hypothesis its a politicised area to say the least). Certainly fascinating to think about, anyway.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger  
stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:52 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, it's the politicised nature of the subject that makes sorting fact from fiction from airbrushing history really difficult.

The premise is sound in several areas.

When first colonised, Tasmanian Aborginals were reported to be quite different to the mainlanders, more akin to the Torres St Islanders or Papua New Guineans.

It's factual that there are/have been pygmy tribes in Papua, as well as that it was linked to Australia for a very long time so it seems strange that the physical attributes of the two are so different.

On the other hand, evolution or natural selection would/could have also played a part over tens of thousands of years.

There's a clear physiological difference between Desert dwelling Aboriginals and coastal ones. That could be the result of different genetic backgrounds, natural selection or just plain environment and diet, or a combination of all three,

Not sure if in these times we'll ever get the truth, as research into this sort of stuff tends to get buried if it doesn't fit the current agenda.

Which is yet another instance of history being re-written to suit the current narrative

_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:20 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

On contemporaneous arguments over nineteenth-century Indigenous massacres:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/nov/18/blood-brains-and-foul-the-evidence-of-australias-massacres-are-in-its-newspapers

Quote:
Lieutenant John O’Connell Bligh led his native troopers on a killing spree in Maryborough in February 1860. In gratitude, the citizens of the town got up a fund to present him with a ceremonial sword inscribed with suitable words of thanks. The result was a newspaper war that ran for a year.

The presentation of the sword was condemned in the Maryborough Chronicle as “one of the most disgraceful acts ever perpetrated by any community, a blot so foul and deep-stained as will leave on this otherwise fair portion of God’s earth the brand of eternal infamy”.

The Moreton Bay Courier gave the details: “Mr. Bligh … charged a camp near Mr. Melville’s, drove the poor creatures from it – some through the town, some into the river – and commenced butchering them forthwith. ‘Darkey,’ who had been constantly employed in the town – who could have been apprehended at any moment, had there been any desire, or occasion, was shot down opposite Mr, Palmer’s, where his body was left, and subsequently roasted.

_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger  
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index -> Victoria Park Tavern All times are GMT + 11 Hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 6 of 7   

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum



Privacy Policy

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group