Australian History X
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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This Wiki article is actually a quite good summary of what happened in Tassie, including the background, the actions and the attempts by the governor of the time to control the situation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_War
As far as the numbers of Tasmanian Aboriginals goes,
Quote: | Estimates of Tasmania's Aboriginal population in 1803, the year of the first British arrivals, range from 3,000 to 7,000. Lyndall Ryan's analysis of population studies led her to conclude that there were about 7,000 spread throughout the island's nine nations;[68] However, Nicholas Clements, citing research by N.J.B Plomley and Rhys Jones, settled on a figure of 3,000 to 4,000; this number being a more reasonable number when the circumstances of Indigenous life are factored in. |
The estimate is that about 1000 Aboriginals were killed and 200 colonists during the conflict. A number of others died when rounded up and interred on nearby islands.
Reading the article I'm struck with the similarities with American settlers moving west and encountering the Native American tribes.
Looking at the past through the lens and filters of the present is always fraught with danger as you can't judge past actions using present day sensibilities, but it was a sorry period in our history. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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roar wrote: | Mugwump wrote: | Where are the genocide, the mass graves? There are none. |
You don't count Tasmania as part of Australia?
Even on the mainland, there has been many a massacre of indigenous people. |
It was war and disease, not genocidal massacre.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_War
*edit* My browser didn't refresh and I missed the other post. |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Lots of one sided wars throughout history; many also lost by the side with the most 'kills' too. Vietnam comes to mind. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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Wokko wrote: | [quote="roar"][quote="Mugwump"] Where are the genocide, the mass graves? There are none. [/quote]
You don't count Tasmania as part of Australia?
Even on the mainland, there has been many a massacre of indigenous people.[/quote]
It was war and disease, not genocidal massacre.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_War
*edit* My browser didn't refresh and I missed the other post. | Why not? |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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Mugwump wrote: | roar wrote: | Mugwump wrote: | Where are the genocide, the mass graves? There are none. |
You don't count Tasmania as part of Australia?
Even on the mainland, there has been many a massacre of indigenous people. |
Of course. The last time I read about it, I seem to recall that Tasmanian aboriginals were about 1% of the total indigenous population estimated at about 700,000. Disease killed many, and it is a matter of record that some organized killings undoubtedly took place. That is entirely consistent with my post. It does not trivialise it to say that by world standards the organized bloodshed was not large. History is everywhere full of people who did not act as we think we would act now. But Australia’s history, taken as a whole, was at worst chequered by the standards of the time, or indeed any time. |
Nobody was asking for an apologia, though. Why must Australia be defended from its own history in this way? _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Pi
Joined: 13 Feb 2006 Location: SA
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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David wrote: | Mugwump wrote: | roar wrote: | Mugwump wrote: | Where are the genocide, the mass graves? There are none. |
You don't count Tasmania as part of Australia?
Even on the mainland, there has been many a massacre of indigenous people. |
Of course. The last time I read about it, I seem to recall that Tasmanian aboriginals were about 1% of the total indigenous population estimated at about 700,000. Disease killed many, and it is a matter of record that some organized killings undoubtedly took place. That is entirely consistent with my post. It does not trivialise it to say that by world standards the organized bloodshed was not large. History is everywhere full of people who did not act as we think we would act now. But Australia’s history, taken as a whole, was at worst chequered by the standards of the time, or indeed any time. |
Nobody was asking for an apologia, though. Why must Australia be defended from its own history in this way? |
Because our history is continually attacked by revisionists and their unwitting disciples. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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stui magpie wrote: | David wrote: | Mugwump wrote: | roar wrote: | Mugwump wrote: | Where are the genocide, the mass graves? There are none. |
You don't count Tasmania as part of Australia?
Even on the mainland, there has been many a massacre of indigenous people. |
Of course. The last time I read about it, I seem to recall that Tasmanian aboriginals were about 1% of the total indigenous population estimated at about 700,000. Disease killed many, and it is a matter of record that some organized killings undoubtedly took place. That is entirely consistent with my post. It does not trivialise it to say that by world standards the organized bloodshed was not large. History is everywhere full of people who did not act as we think we would act now. But Australia’s history, taken as a whole, was at worst chequered by the standards of the time, or indeed any time. |
Nobody was asking for an apologia, though. Why must Australia be defended from its own history in this way? |
Because our history is continually attacked by revisionists and their unwitting disciples. |
It isn't revisionist to acknowledge the obvious. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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But it is to re-write history and teach falsehoods to others _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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stui magpie wrote: | But it is to re-write history and teach falsehoods to others |
History is revised and adjusted constantly. It’s the nature of the beast. What are the falsehoods you think of? |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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Many are in the bitter, bilious article from the young lady in the Guardian which started this digression. Let me use two examples from the “Strength through guilt” youth propaganda arm of the modern Left, ie pop music:
“ Beds are Burning” by Midnight Oil - “It belongs to them/ Let’s give it back”.
“Solid Rock” by Shane Howard/Goanna :
“Don't tell me that it's justified, 'cause somewhere, someone lied
Yeah well someone lied, genocide...”
I often ask young adults emerging from today’s Australian school system about our history, and they know relatively little of the 19th century other than the evils of white colonialism, and “massacres”, which they relay with a clear sense of being far superior to their great-grandfathers. They are often surprised to hear that white settlers were - justifiably enough - sometimes attacked by Aboriginal people first in those massacres, or that aboriginal tribal customs might not fit their modern morals either. They show, in short very little historical awareness. They know next to nothing about the complicated tensions between 18th Centuriy imperialism, settlement, British law, security and development which were navigated by people who managed the successful emergence of the modern, free, tolerant and prosperous nation they now enjoy.
The actual history has been reduced to a cheap, smug morality play, and that, taken all together, is a grave falsehood. _________________ Two more flags before I die! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^As hyperbolic as a Beds are Burning is, it was a reaction against a good few centuries of genuinely racist ideology which pervaded common thought and institution, and which largely went unquestioned until genuine space for alternative critique was created from, say, the 1970s forward. Further, the racism of those centuries was so thorough, its menace lives on even today even though its original purveyors have long passed on.
So, to get upset by a contemporary over-correction in the light of such genuine racism, when the dominant institutional and academic position assumed rather than critiqued it right up until the 1990s, is to decontextualise the problem. Not too long ago, there was virtually no protest at all; that, it seems, is the vastly greater horror which was, and still should be, the starting point of discussion.
The matter of whether anyone at all can escape history, whether be a colonial racist or a teenage socialist, is quite a different question. _________________ In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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stui magpie wrote: | Because our history is continually attacked by revisionists and their unwitting disciples. |
Ain’t that the truth... _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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Pies4shaw wrote: | stui magpie wrote: | But it is to re-write history and teach falsehoods to others |
History is revised and adjusted constantly. It’s the nature of the beast. What are the falsehoods you think of? |
I've heard and read a number, several of them related to the 1967 referendum and spread by indigenous people, I assume accidentally because they just believe what they've been told.
Some of these include that prior to the 67 referendum:
Aboriginals were considered fauna. (this was actually taught at cross cultural training to a white woman who's kids are indigenous)
Aboriginals didn't have the vote
Aboriginals weren't Australian citizens.
All of these are false and can be quickly proven so, yet they are regurgitated en masse (to attract sympathy or enhance the perception of victim hood I assume). As I said to the woman referred to above when I corrected her about the Fauna, enough bad stuff happened, we don't need to make shit up.
I actually attended a conference at which an Indigenous guy was a guest speaker, talking about his growing up as an Indigenous boy in the 60's. He included these and other myths in his narrative. I decided it would be inappropriate to correct him as the overall story was worth listening to even though it contained many errors of fact, so I just listened. I was very surprised afterward at a small snr management meeting when one of the managers commented how good the speaker was and that she didn't know some of his facts and got general agreement until a snr doctor pointed out that they didn't know those facts because they were wrong. He was challenged on that and I had to speak up in support. Interesting that the Indigenous guy's version was accepted without question but when it was challenged we nearly had to resort to Google. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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