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Post Match. Pies rout Roos - All comments please.

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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:23 pm
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I agree that Tony Shaw's claim that SM had 6 clangers in the first quarter and a bit was an exaggeration...

It's also true, though, that it's not just this game. SM has an unfortunate "body of work" in this regards. People seem to be ignoring what has been happening in the VFL and then saying things like, "I can't believe the match committee blah, blah, blah, ..."

This was also a known issue when he was recruited. That's not true of (e.g.) Ads.
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MJ23 



Joined: 28 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:39 pm
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Adams played a great game but turned it over more than anyone.

7 clangers. Not all were under pressure either.

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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:50 pm
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^ Clangers: Adams 7, Grundy 7, Maynard 5, Greenwood 4, Murray 4, everyone else 3 or fewer each....

That actually matches public perception rather well.


Of those with eight or more kicks, JdG, WHE, Howe recorded 0 clangers...
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FrankieGoesToCollingwood Taurus

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Joined: 29 May 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:52 pm
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3 or 4 is not a great game, 7 is horrendous.
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FrankieGoesToCollingwood Taurus

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:55 pm
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K wrote:
^ Clangers: Adams 7, Grundy 7, Maynard 5, Greenwood 4, Murray 4, everyone else 3 or fewer each....

That actually matches public perception rather well.


Of those with eight or more kicks, JdG, WHE, Howe recorded 0 clangers...



Are frees against counted as clangers? Grundy seemed to have a few very soft ones paid against him.

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AN_Inkling 



Joined: 06 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:57 pm
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K wrote:
I agree that Tony Shaw's claim that SM had 6 clangers in the first quarter and a bit was an exaggeration...

It's also true, though, that it's not just this game. SM has an unfortunate "body of work" in this regards. People seem to be ignoring what has been happening in the VFL and then saying things like, "I can't believe the match committee blah, blah, blah, ..."

This was also a known issue when he was recruited. That's not true of (e.g.) Ads.


I've been of the view that Murray's disposal has been fine throughout his AFL career. For a 20-21 year old line breaker, I don't see too many issues other than a few mistakes close to goal. I'm not sure he's even worse with those than our other defenders, Howe, Langdon, Crisp, Maynard are all capable of the odd howler.

From what I've seen, he made more mistakes at VFL level but that doesn't concern me, I'm not worried about winning a VFL flag.

There was nothing wrong with his kicking on the weekend. He had one costly kick, that if Maynard had marked it (as Daicos did a similar kick from Langdon) we would barely have noticed. The kick wasn't great, but Maynard's fumble was about as bad.

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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:57 pm
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K wrote:
Clangers: Adams 7, Grundy 7, Maynard 5, Greenwood 4, Murray 4, everyone else 3 or fewer each....
That actually matches public perception rather well.
...

Tay's clangers came from 20 kicks, 11 contested possessions, Grundy's from 9 & 4, Maynard's 13 & 3, Murray 16 & 3...
Which leaves Greenwood: 6 & 2. Ouch.


Last edited by K on Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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September Zeros 



Joined: 04 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:59 pm
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And it should be said - many are not focused on Murray just the fact he got dropped in the first place and struggled for reselection because of exactly this.

I think most of us purely comment because we love everything else the guy does and offers and want him to succeed.

Simply want to see the him iron out the wrinkles.

Same can be said for other repeat offenders like Mr Adams.

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AN_Inkling 



Joined: 06 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:06 pm
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FrankieGoesToCollingwood wrote:
K wrote:
^ Clangers: Adams 7, Grundy 7, Maynard 5, Greenwood 4, Murray 4, everyone else 3 or fewer each....

That actually matches public perception rather well.


Of those with eight or more kicks, JdG, WHE, Howe recorded 0 clangers...



Are frees against counted as clangers? Grundy seemed to have a few very soft ones paid against him.

Yes. Frees are counted as clangers as are simple dropped marks.

Murray had 4 clangers. Two were frees and at most two were kicks. Had one that definitely went straight to the opposition, I'm struggling to find a second clanger kick. Maybe the pass to Maynard in the goal square - Edit: actually, possibly the short kick that went over Greenwood's head.

If we're rating kicking: Adams had to be our worst on the weekend. Love most of what he does, but at times his kicking is seriously bad. Very nice set shot goal in the first though.

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Last edited by AN_Inkling on Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:23 pm; edited 2 times in total
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:19 pm
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K wrote:
K wrote:
Clangers: Adams 7, Grundy 7, Maynard 5, Greenwood 4, Murray 4, everyone else 3 or fewer each....
That actually matches public perception rather well.
...

Tay's clangers came from 20 kicks, 11 contested possessions, Grundy's from 9 & 4, Maynard's 13 & 3, Murray 16 & 3...
Which leaves Greenwood: 6 & 2. Ouch.

FWIW, Tiger comparisons (not even the same game!):

Martin 6 clangers (20 K, 13 CP), Moore 4 (4, 8 ), Rance 4 (4, 5), Nankervis 4 (9, 7), McIntosh 4 (7, 3), Rioli 4 (7, 7), Edwards 4 (7,8 ), ...

And those recording 0 clangers: ---. Yup. Zip. Nada. Nobody.

Which also matches perception rather well...
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Skids Cancer



Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 ... aka Assassin member #175

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:04 pm
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I don't care if Murray and Adams have a few clangers. What they offer overall far outweighs a few stuff ups.
Adams was superb against the roos and you know he's going to try his guts out every second of the game.
Murray, his pace is priceless, when the boys take the game on and run past each other, we look a million bucks, Murray instigates those sorts of plays.

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FrankieGoesToCollingwood Taurus

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Joined: 29 May 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:33 pm
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AN_Inkling wrote:
FrankieGoesToCollingwood wrote:
K wrote:
^ Clangers: Adams 7, Grundy 7, Maynard 5, Greenwood 4, Murray 4, everyone else 3 or fewer each....

That actually matches public perception rather well.


Of those with eight or more kicks, JdG, WHE, Howe recorded 0 clangers...



Are frees against counted as clangers? Grundy seemed to have a few very soft ones paid against him.

Yes. Frees are counted as clangers as are simple dropped marks.

Murray had 4 clangers. Two were frees and at most two were kicks. Had one that definitely went straight to the opposition, I'm struggling to find a second clanger kick. Maybe the pass to Maynard in the goal square - Edit: actually, possibly the short kick that went over Greenwood's head.

If we're rating kicking: Adams had to be our worst on the weekend. Love most of what he does, but at times his kicking is seriously bad. Very nice set shot goal in the first though.



Cheers, I suspected as much.

Agree on Adams, it's why I didn't give him votes. A potentially great game spoilt by shocking disposal!

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AN_Inkling 



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:21 pm
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September Zeros wrote:
It's a good opinion piece inkling giving us your thoughts on how plays panned out but that's all it is. You tried to leave out bias but you could write something very similar with more negative spin and you could write it about of number of games exploring his recent work in the VFL . There's more to it than Saturday's game,

There is more to it than Saturday's game. The reason I took a close look at Saturday's game though is that I'd been hearing complaints about his disposal for a while, but had not been seeing major issues in most games. Certainly nothing that was cancelling out his run and an average of 21 disposals.

People had been calling for him to be dropped for his poor disposal in this game, so I didn't need to go further into history. VFL is irrelevant to me.

September Zeros wrote:

He had some very costly turn overs by foot AND by decision making that could have resulted in three to four goals being scored all at his own hand. He's just lucky they missed a couple. I simply don't care how many hit the mark, I care about the cost of the ones that don't.

It was literally two kicks. One which actually did hit its mark but was dropped, so there was fault on both he and Maynard. The other was a clearing kick from defence around his body, pretty common for those to go to the opposition. Neither were as bad as Langdon's first half turnover (directly to a North player) which also resulted in goal.

September Zeros wrote:

But context is critical and he was making a fine contribution to keeping north in it in the first half. With emphasis on the word contribution.

I disagree. Two goals did not keep them in the game and neither were solely on Murray. One was an iffy kick dropped by Maynard the other was a free kick around 70m from goal which then resulted in a goal. His play outside of those two mistakes was very good, with 17 disposals and 5 inside 50s. I had him firmly in our best players.

How about Grundy? He gave away a direct free to Goldstein inside 50m which was converted. He also gave away another free about 60m out which luckily only resulted in a behind. Pretty much the same scoring contribution from errors in the first half.

I've not claimed he didn't make mistakes. I focused on disposal as it is a weakness that is constantly brought up. But let's look at the two holding the ball mistakes:

1) Holding the ball 70m out from the North goal taking on Daw. I have no problem with this whatsoever, it's what he should be doing. He got caught on this occasion, next time don't get caught. Earlier in the quarter he broke a tackle in the middle and setup a goal. This is one player we don't want taking the safe option every time.

2) Holding the ball in front of goal? This was a mistake. I'd need to look at it again to see how egregious, I've not rewatched the second half yet.

I get that there are reasons to be "concerned" about his game. I just want us to be concerned about his actual mistakes, not inflating them to be bigger and more numerous than they are and pretending that he is the only culprit.

For the game on the weekend I was very impressed and heartened that he was still prepared to take the game on. Both in his mental toughness but also in the club, as they have clearly not asked him to go back into his shell and that has always been the concern. This week will be a tougher test for him, and the whole team. My view is that playing someone with the courage to take the game on gives us a better chance of winning than playing it safe and selecting a placeholder type player who will have little impact, positive or negative. If Murray succeeds he could elevate the team, if he fails then at least we tried.

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RudeBoy 



Joined: 28 Nov 2005


PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:31 pm
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FrankieGoesToCollingwood wrote:
3 or 4 is not a great game, 7 is horrendous.


Better drop Grundy then. Confused
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September Zeros 



Joined: 04 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:39 am
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AN_Inkling wrote:
September Zeros wrote:
It's a good opinion piece inkling giving us your thoughts on how plays panned out but that's all it is. You tried to leave out bias but you could write something very similar with more negative spin and you could write it about of number of games exploring his recent work in the VFL . There's more to it than Saturday's game,

There is more to it than Saturday's game. The reason I took a close look at Saturday's game though is that I'd been hearing complaints about his disposal for a while, but had not been seeing major issues in most games. Certainly nothing that was cancelling out his run and an average of 21 disposals.

People had been calling for him to be dropped for his poor disposal in this game, so I didn't need to go further into history. VFL is irrelevant to me.

September Zeros wrote:

He had some very costly turn overs by foot AND by decision making that could have resulted in three to four goals being scored all at his own hand. He's just lucky they missed a couple. I simply don't care how many hit the mark, I care about the cost of the ones that don't.

It was literally two kicks. One which actually did hit its mark but was dropped, so there was fault on both he and Maynard. The other was a clearing kick from defence around his body, pretty common for those to go to the opposition. Neither were as bad as Langdon's first half turnover (directly to a North player) which also resulted in goal.

September Zeros wrote:

But context is critical and he was making a fine contribution to keeping north in it in the first half. With emphasis on the word contribution.

I disagree. Two goals did not keep them in the game and neither were solely on Murray. One was an iffy kick dropped by Maynard the other was a free kick around 70m from goal which then resulted in a goal. His play outside of those two mistakes was very good, with 17 disposals and 5 inside 50s. I had him firmly in our best players.

How about Grundy? He gave away a direct free to Goldstein inside 50m which was converted. He also gave away another free about 60m out which luckily only resulted in a behind. Pretty much the same scoring contribution from errors in the first half.

I've not claimed he didn't make mistakes. I focused on disposal as it is a weakness that is constantly brought up. But let's look at the two holding the ball mistakes:

1) Holding the ball 70m out from the North goal taking on Daw. I have no problem with this whatsoever, it's what he should be doing. He got caught on this occasion, next time don't get caught. Earlier in the quarter he broke a tackle in the middle and setup a goal. This is one player we don't want taking the safe option every time.

2) Holding the ball in front of goal? This was a mistake. I'd need to look at it again to see how egregious, I've not rewatched the second half yet.

I get that there are reasons to be "concerned" about his game. I just want us to be concerned about his actual mistakes, not inflating them to be bigger and more numerous than they are and pretending that he is the only culprit.

For the game on the weekend I was very impressed and heartened that he was still prepared to take the game on. Both in his mental toughness but also in the club, as they have clearly not asked him to go back into his shell and that has always been the concern. This week will be a tougher test for him, and the whole team. My view is that playing someone with the courage to take the game on gives us a better chance of winning than playing it safe and selecting a placeholder type player who will have little impact, positive or negative. If Murray succeeds he could elevate the team, if he fails then at least we tried.



Inkling....I'm not inflating his mistakes.

If anything for some reason you are over defending the fact that a guy (who shows great promise) has a few things to work on and has for a while now. You can spin it any way you like.

VFL may be irrelevant to you but it's not to the selectors and there's a reason Murray has been languishing In the twos.

Again ....I like him in the selected side ....no argument here. But I won't get to see that if history keeps repeating.

That's not my call, that's the selectors.

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