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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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David, when you write that the term evil is “inaccurate”, I think you are still locked into the idea that there is some kind of natural science here. And that, I think, truly is inaccurate.
In truth, these are just terms that we use to label behaviour and patterns of behaviour. The subjective experience of an individual is fundamentally enigmatic to us, so we cannot usually tell the difference between mad and bad.
As an example, Josef Stalin was pretty clearly one of the most wicked men that ever lived ; but no truly sane human being is indifferent to the infliction of hideous suffering on other people, as he was. So was he mad, or bad ? He was not psychotic, as far as we could tell : his thought processes were very linear. But his cruelty was not, in some sense, rational. So it is fair to say that he was both mad and bad at the same time. The point of this is that the language is trying to get at something that it cannot access, which cannot be properly observed. Hence we can only look at the social use of these labels, and choose the one that seems to us conducive to positive human social life.
At a certain point, most arguments come down to the problems identified by Ludwig Wittgenstein - a kind of Einstein or Bohr among philosophers. In essence, he recognized that language simply cannot do what we try to make it do most of the time. Because his texts are dense, he is not widely discussed or taught outside formal philosophy courses, but his critical insights should be a vital text in our educational curriculum, for it would avoid a lot of wasted breath and conflict. _________________ Two more flags before I die! |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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It’s about everyone respecting everyone else.
It’s akso fact that the stats are heavily weighted to female being assaulted by males in domestic violence cases. _________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Skids
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007 Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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Yeah, it really is a man's world...
85% of homeless... are men
76% of suicides . ....are men
70% of murder victims .... are men
92% of workplace deaths .... are men
97% of war deaths .... are men
14% of men get custody after a divorce. _________________ Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Women are more likely to commit child abuse of a biological child than men are, and yet we don't hear about 'teaching women not to abuse children'.
One of the groups that is consistently found to have the highest domestic abuse rates is lesbian women. Teach lesbians not to abuse?
Women kill their own children more often than men do. Teach all women not to kill their children? |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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Getting defensive doesn't really help though. The fact is that the vast majority of those killed by someone close to them are killed by males, even though an Australian male is 40 times more likely to kill himself than his partner.
We need to somehow reframe the discussion to remove the finger pointing and the resulting defensiveness because while 99.9% of men don't abuse their partner, that defensiveness provides a screen for the 0.1% to hide behind. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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I don’t think it is any great news that testosterone is associated with aggression, increased tolerance for risk and sexual promiscuity. Human beings were designed by an evolutionary background where these things were necessary, and it’s probably true that these qualities lie behind a lot of high achievements in society today. Equally, men were designed to live in social groups, so most men have the human capacity for empathy and cooperation. albeit a bit less than the average member of the more oestrogenated half of the population.
Some men struggle to control or profitably channel their edgier instincts, especially when young. Most men do not. It’s really not hard to grasp, unless you want to avoid grasping it because that will afford you social power or advantage over others.
Much of this nonsense would go away if people had any ready understanding of the idea of the bell curve. We are all part of a population distribution. The aggression of the average male is higher than that of the average female. The population distributions, however, overlap greatly, so many women are more aggressive than many men. _________________ Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
I'm not that sure it's that simple. I've posted before about the chemical difference, but I'm starting to think it's more of a personality thing.
In hindsight, I knew 2 men who both bashed their wives when I was a kid. I didn't know then, I found out later. Much later in one case and I was surprised particularly in the latter case as my parents were friends with him and I liked him.
As a hypothesis, I think these men were missing something. A feeling of control of their lives, self esteem issues, pick a number of similar things. Being the bid dominant man at home, putting the missus and kids back in their box with a smack, was their way of boosting their own self esteem and regaining control, despite knowing that what they were doing was wrong. Basically about control and power. It's related to the why people bully others scenario.
Side note, I went to primary school with one of the sons and high school with the other. The former joined the navy at 15 as an apprentice chef and committed suicide in his 40's. His dad committed suicide in his 60's. The other pursued a footy career for a while, then was a diver with the police, then "died suddenly" in his late 40's early 50's, around the same age his dad died of a heart attack _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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stui magpie wrote: | ^
I'm not that sure it's that simple. I've posted before about the chemical difference, but I'm starting to think it's more of a personality thing.
In hindsight, I knew 2 men who both bashed their wives when I was a kid. I didn't know then, I found out later. Much later in one case and I was surprised particularly in the latter case as my parents were friends with him and I liked him.
As a hypothesis, I think these men were missing something. A feeling of control of their lives, self esteem issues, pick a number of similar things. Being the bid dominant man at home, putting the missus and kids back in their box with a smack, was their way of boosting their own self esteem and regaining control, despite knowing that what they were doing was wrong. Basically about control and power. It's related to the why people bully others scenario.
Side note, I went to primary school with one of the sons and high school with the other. The former joined the navy at 15 as an apprentice chef and committed suicide in his 40's. His dad committed suicide in his 60's. The other pursued a footy career for a while, then was a diver with the police, then "died suddenly" in his late 40's early 50's, around the same age his dad died of a heart attack |
I am sure you are correct. I think it is almost proven that testosterone is effectively a necessary condition for aggression, but not a sufficient one. The translation of potential to actual violence clearly depends on many environmental and social factors. Studies have shown Men with low testosterone will put up with higher levels of frustration than those with high testosterone, however. _________________ Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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I wonder if there's a correlation with height. Little mans disease.
Both guys I mentioned above were about 5'6" _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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stui magpie wrote: | As a hypothesis, I think these men were missing something. A feeling of control of their lives, self esteem issues, pick a number of similar things. Being the bid dominant man at home, putting the missus and kids back in their box with a smack, was their way of boosting their own self esteem and regaining control, despite knowing that what they were doing was wrong. Basically about control and power. It's related to the why people bully others scenario. |
I think there’s a lot of truth to that. Take any schoolyard bully and you’ll probably find some serious problems going on behind the scenes. Adults are likely no different. _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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Skids wrote: | Yeah, it really is a man's world...
85% of homeless... are men did they all leave a marriage behind? and since this is obviously its all womens fault, did she kick him out, for no reason of course, every time? how much does mental illness or PTSD have to do with this stat?
76% of suicides . ....are men how much of this have to do with real men dont cry or show emotion?
70% of murder victims .... are men means jack shit without the stats of sex of the killer. im guessing the higher percentage are male??
92% of workplace deaths .... are men not surprising considering the low percentage of women in "dangerous"jobs compared to men.
97% of war deaths .... are men not sure how you get equal numbers of women signing up
14% of men get custody after a divorce. how many want custody? more importantly how many have shared custody?
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_________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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stui magpie wrote: | ^
I'm not that sure it's that simple. I've posted before about the chemical difference, but I'm starting to think it's more of a personality thing.
In hindsight, I knew 2 men who both bashed their wives when I was a kid. I didn't know then, I found out later. Much later in one case and I was surprised particularly in the latter case as my parents were friends with him and I liked him.
As a hypothesis, I think these men were missing something. A feeling of control of their lives, self esteem issues, pick a number of similar things. Being the bid dominant man at home, putting the missus and kids back in their box with a smack, was their way of boosting their own self esteem and regaining control, despite knowing that what they were doing was wrong. Basically about control and power. It's related to the why people bully others scenario.
Side note, I went to primary school with one of the sons and high school with the other. The former joined the navy at 15 as an apprentice chef and committed suicide in his 40's. His dad committed suicide in his 60's. The other pursued a footy career for a while, then was a diver with the police, then "died suddenly" in his late 40's early 50's, around the same age his dad died of a heart attack |
were these guys smaller - much smaller than their wives?
why were you surprised? back in the day my dad was popular, because he signed up for stuff, and put on an act, it wasnt until my younger sister made aussie and olympic teams that his true bully boy ways became some what obvious in public. and she is 8 years younger than me. No one knew.
and what if you did know? what would you or your parents have done? this question fascinates me, i guess i waited for a white knight for a long time, and then saved myself when it wasnt coming.
my dad is a little over 6 foot, he was always a big powerful man, easy 100-110 all his adult life (id say he is about 150 now). my mum was just 5'4" and about 55kg dripping wet. i dont know too many women with partners with such a difference in weight/strength/size the other way around. Is it Men dont hit women that stops them defending themselves these men?
And what could my mum possibly have done to defend herself? legally, before he killed her first? how many women die because the cops cant take action until its too $£$%^%%$ late?
when i was 16 i had a mad passionate 2 years with a guy only slightly bigger than me, but a lot stronger, I thought he was my forever. so did everyone else. he gave me a black eye, hed never even looked at me funny before then, i walked that day. never looked back. but things were different even then, than in my parents and your parents day. _________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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think positive wrote: | Skids wrote: | Yeah, it really is a man's world...
85% of homeless... are men did they all leave a marriage behind? and since this is obviously its all womens fault, did she kick him out, for no reason of course, every time? how much does mental illness or PTSD have to do with this stat?
76% of suicides . ....are men how much of this have to do with real men dont cry or show emotion?
70% of murder victims .... are men means jack shit without the stats of sex of the killer. im guessing the higher percentage are male??
92% of workplace deaths .... are men not surprising considering the low percentage of women in "dangerous"jobs compared to men.
97% of war deaths .... are men not sure how you get equal numbers of women signing up
14% of men get custody after a divorce. how many want custody? more importantly how many have shared custody?
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While those questions may be relevant rebuttals to someone claiming widespread male victimisation at the hands of women, I don’t think they detract from the point that, in certain areas, men seem to be faring badly. Whatever the agenda of some who bring such statistics up, I think that, rather than trying to find ways to dismiss them, we ought to be taking them seriously. _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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roar
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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Wokko wrote: | Women are more likely to commit child abuse of a biological child than men are, and yet we don't hear about 'teaching women not to abuse children'.
One of the groups that is consistently found to have the highest domestic abuse rates is lesbian women. Teach lesbians not to abuse?
Women kill their own children more often than men do. Teach all women not to kill their children? |
Yes, we should, and I dare say, we are teaching those things. _________________ kill for collingwood! |
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