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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ It’s certainly the most allowable, and practised, form of discrimination against individuals in corporate life, as anyone who has seen enough selection processes knows. All those “diverse shortlists”.
One might design policy based on helping groups of people who share common circumstances, but ascribing intentionality to groups is a very aggressive thing to do. It’s usually about the struggle for power and advantage. It’s time we recognized that. _________________ Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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Pies4shaw wrote: | No, it isn't - and the appeal to linguistic form in this case is pointless and stupid. "Men" is not a category of routine abuse or vilification in the way that "Aborigines" is. Why is that? Because "Men" actually, by and large, rule the planet but "Aborigines" are systematically subordinated and subjugated.
All political utterance is context-dependent and is actually incapable of being reduced to these sorts of simple formal comparisons. |
I agree that context is crucial, and that it’s necessary to recognise power dynamics in these things. If that were the only point of difference, though, one could understand how someone acting in good faith could interpret Hanson-Young’s statement as a categorical slur, justified or otherwise, and put it in the same category as “reverse racism” and the like. But WPT’s argument here is that it is either clearly not a reference to all men – in terms of its syntax, I don’t think that’s true – or that, regardless, it is up to men to take offence or not, in an “if the cap fits” kind of way. In the case of the latter conclusion, I don’t think that’s an ideal approach to political discourse – I believe clarity of language is a desirable thing, and that ambiguous or manipulative language should be avoided, particularly when it can be interpreted as prejudicial against a certain group. _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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I think this is an unsophisticated way of approaching things. If I say “the nutter-right is taking over” and “Aborogines are taking over”, neither is literally true as a matter of fact. However, the former has semantic content, whereas the latter is just self-evidently stupid.
The way I know Hanson-Young wasn’t referring to “all” men (whatever that means) is because I knew, in context, that she didn’t mean me, or men like me. It is overwhelmingly true that when women are raped they are raped by men. It is also beyond obvious that not all men are rapists and that not all women are rape victims. So, saying “men need to stop raping women” or the like is a form of shorthand. It’s, no doubt, a very complex utterance but amongst the many meanings it did have, the one DL contended for was not available to anyone who has passed third grade.
“Men” are not, in our political discourse at this particular point in time, discernible as a “group” capable of being vilified in the way the last part of your post might be intended to suggest. Her language was loose - but we do all know what she meant, even - I guess - the wilfully ignorant who support stupid Right “causes”. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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watt price tully wrote: | ^ Here we go. The right wing boys chorus. Let's blame Sarah Hanson -Young for Leyonhom's behaviour. Really? For goodness sake.
Coming from the same if not similar chorus of those who blame feminism for the plight of men: she was asking for it perhaps? She made me do it. Haven't I seen that before recently?
Pathetic. |
Really? Who's blaming her? Me? Mugwump?
I think you need a medium rare steak, clearly your mood and intelligence are suffering. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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Surely this is all down to choosing to be offended. It just seems ludicrous. Far worse he said on the footy field _________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ yep, a schoolteacher in a playground would sort it out quickly. But the national parliament cannot be held to the high standards of 12 year-olds. The venom sacs in a 12 year old aren’t developed enough. _________________ Two more flags before I die! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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Or they don’t know to get a lawyer! _________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ that’s what I have also been told by a mate who is a parliamentarian. She hands it out very freely, knowing perfectly well what she is doing, then plays identity politics victim when anyone takes it up to her. Well said, Cory. _________________ Two more flags before I die! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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How do you know a class act he or she doubt a reputation could survive the ocean of slime that the Republican Party would pour on her if they thought I was a threat hands it out knowing well what she is doing then plays identity politics victim when anyone takes it her? |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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Eh. Cory “Common Sense Does Not Live Here” Bernardi is pretty much the king of bad takes, so I’ll take his assessments on parliamemtary behaviour with a grain of salt. _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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David wrote: | Eh. Cory “Common Sense Does Not Live Here” Bernardi is pretty much the king of bad takes, so I’ll take his assessments on parliamemtary behaviour with a grain of salt. |
I don’t know much about him, but prompted by your blanket dismissal I just spent half an hour reading several of his blogs. His “common sense” seems to consist of fairly orthodox conservative positions, which may be unfashionable, but are probably closer to what most people believe than your views. I was pleased to see someone advocating values that underpinned the relatively gentle and respectful society we used to have.
So do you mean you disagree with him, or has he genuinely really been off with the fairies somewhere ? Has he any record of unparliamentary behaviour? _________________ Two more flags before I die! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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I have heard that opinion, but I would like to know more before I form my own. |
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ronrat
Joined: 22 May 2006 Location: Thailand
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Basically both parties are largely irrelevant in the scheme of things and hopefully will disappear to duke it out in court without detracting from more important issues. They are both at fault. For a lot of things. _________________ Annoying opposition supporters since 1967. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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Mugwump wrote: | David wrote: | Eh. Cory “Common Sense Does Not Live Here” Bernardi is pretty much the king of bad takes, so I’ll take his assessments on parliamemtary behaviour with a grain of salt. |
I don’t know much about him, but prompted by your blanket dismissal I just spent half an hour reading several of his blogs. His “common sense” seems to consist of fairly orthodox conservative positions, which may be unfashionable, but are probably closer to what most people believe than your views. I was pleased to see someone advocating values that underpinned the relatively gentle and respectful society we used to have.
So do you mean you disagree with him, or has he genuinely really been off with the fairies somewhere ? Has he any record of unparliamentary behaviour? |
He strikes me as a self-righteous blowhard who is very happy to dish it out but doesn’t like to get it back in return. His comments that same-sex marriage would lead to people marrying their pets is just one example of his exquisite grip on reality in action. He also left the Liberal Party because Turnbull is too left-wing and a “warmist” to boot. The “interjections” that he accuses Hanson-Young of probably relate to her calling him and his ilk fascists for supporting Australia’s detention centres – the sort of thing that people like him think they have the moral high ground on. _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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