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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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That’s a fair point – it probably is worthy of its own thread (though honestly we have so much Islamophobic / anti-migrant stuff on this forum already that I’m loath to contribute further to it).
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Plenty of substantial contributions from other quarters, though - eg, Jmmy Saville, Rolf Harris and their many, many friends. |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | ^ I think what bothers me (apart from the awful facts of the crimes themselves) is that there is a legitimate pattern we're seeing (as in Cologne and a few other cases in Europe) of 'liberal' authorities trying to cover up or downplay crimes or gang activity committed by people from minority cultural or ethnic backgrounds. That they are seeking to reduce the risk of civil unrest and racist backlash is quite understandable; but they have to understand that suppressing information is not an effective response, and only emboldens the far right. Think about it this way: when the only people who are telling you the truth on certain matters (albeit in highly selective ways and for bigoted purposes) are people like Tommy Robinson and outlets like Breitbart, then those people have scored a massive propaganda goal.
For people like me who oppose racism and xenophobia and support mass migration, cultural tolerance and religious freedom, the answer to the conundrum is obvious: don't suppress stuff. Make statistics available. If there's a problem that is currently outsized in a certain community, like Sudanese gang activity, acknowledge it, deal with it and help the general public understand why. Politically correct euphemisms or suppression of facts not only potentially make the problem much bigger (as they seem to have in Rotherham), but they play into the narratives and tactics of those who want to divide our society and intimidate minorities. |
Agreed. However, people rarely make decisions based on the facts, but on what they feel and the facts then get either distorted, ignored or selected to support their decision.
Trying to cover up or otherwise deny actions by a minority in order to deny ammunition to antagonists is wrong on several levels not the least of which is it denies justice to the victims.
I'd far rather see some honesty and rationality but it seems too few people these days are equipped to function like that.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | Plenty of substantial contributions from other quarters, though - eg, Jmmy Saville, Rolf Harris and their many, many friends. |
Absolutely, and that’s what the Breitbart crowd deliberately overlook. And there are definitely realms in which focusing on the crimes of a certain group of people (such as Trump’s focus on crimes committed by undocumented migrants) is nothing more than shameless, cynical special pleading. Yet by the same token, this case (as with, I suspect, the recent spate of Sudanese home invasions) does seem to be an example of a series of crimes that has contextually specific characteristics, in which the ethnocultural identity of the offenders might not be said to be incidental (and as above, it’s also true that those ‘types’ of crimes can eat up unwarranted public attention). I don’t know precisely how authorities should deal with these dynamics, but I suspect euphemistic language or suppression of facts is the second-worst possible response (the worst, obviously, being deliberate stoking of prejudice). One can be cautious and responsible without hiding stuff from the general public.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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| Quote: | | Politically correct euphemisms or suppression of facts not only potentially make the problem much bigger (as they seem to have in Rotherham), but they play into the narratives and tactics of those who want to divide our society and intimidate minorities. |
Interesting, here's an anti-Robinson piece that argues exactly the same thing:
https://unherd.com/2018/06/dont-hear-gang-grooming-girls/ |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| thesoretoothsayer wrote: | | Quote: | | Politically correct euphemisms or suppression of facts not only potentially make the problem much bigger (as they seem to have in Rotherham), but they play into the narratives and tactics of those who want to divide our society and intimidate minorities. |
Interesting, here's an anti-Robinson piece that argues exactly the same thing:
https://unherd.com/2018/06/dont-hear-gang-grooming-girls/ |
That's what happens when the progressives agenda of screaming such terms as racist and islamaphobe comes back to bite. Genuine people are too scared to raise issues.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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Contemnors still need to be be stopped, until the trials are done. That's now happened. People can say what they like.
What's a "genuine person" here Stui? Which of us thinks it was a good thing these crimes were committed? |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| David wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | Plenty of substantial contributions from other quarters, though - eg, Jmmy Saville, Rolf Harris and their many, many friends. |
Absolutely, and that’s what the Breitbart crowd deliberately overlook. And there are definitely realms in which focusing on the crimes of a certain group of people (such as Trump’s focus on crimes committed by undocumented migrants) is nothing more than shameless, cynical special pleading. Yet by the same token, this case (as with, I suspect, the recent spate of Sudanese home invasions) does seem to be an example of a series of crimes that has contextually specific characteristics, in which the ethnocultural identity of the offenders might not be said to be incidental (and as above, it’s also true that those ‘types’ of crimes can eat up unwarranted public attention). I don’t know precisely how authorities should deal with these dynamics, but I suspect euphemistic language or suppression of facts is the second-worst possible response (the worst, obviously, being deliberate stoking of prejudice). One can be cautious and responsible without hiding stuff from the general public. |
The authorities should pursue the perpetrators and put them in prison, if found guilty. In the usual way.
There has been no "suppression" of facts by the trial process - just the usual control exercised by the Court to do what it could to reduce the risk of a mistrial. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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Here's a reasonable summary of what Tommy Robinson is actually about:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/18/its-another-not-racist-day-in-australia
"Free speech": "You know who the real victims are Clancy? White Heterosexual Men. Because if you don't have the freedom to deny the humanity of people who aren't white and to encourage others to do the same then it's politically correct identity politics fascism. And that's antifa."
First Dog's use of random strings of words quite nicely sums up the extreme right's attempt to comprehend complex ideas. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | Contemnors still need to be be stopped, until the trials are done. That's now happened. People can say what they like.
What's a "genuine person" here Stui? Which of us thinks it was a good thing these crimes were committed? |
I think everyone here would be unanimous in thinking these crimes were abhorrent.
I'm not making any excuses for Robinson, he clearly put the trial in jeopardy.
I was referring to the point made in a linked article above that this criminal behaviour, raping of young women, had been happening for some time but people were afraid to call it out and take action for fear of being called Islamophobic.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Pi
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA
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https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45951152
The case has now been referred to the attorney general where all evidence will be presented and witness's cross examined. Looks like the whole saga is far more than a 'simple' contempt of court ruling.
Judge Hilliard: "All the evidence must be rigorously tested."
sounds about right...
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Pi = Infinite = Collingwood = Always
Floreat Pica |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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McAfee is telling me that link can't be trusted and don't go there. 
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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P4S, I thought we could go together.
I'll be wearing a red carnation and a 1488 tattoo across my forehead. |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| thesoretoothsayer wrote: |
P4S, I thought we could go together.
I'll be wearing a red carnation and a 1488 tattoo across my forehead. |
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