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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Don't care who he is – a prison shouldn't be a theatre of cruelty. Whether you see it as primarily a tool for either punishment or rehabilitation, brutality behind bars is nothing to aspire to in a civilised society (and there's nothing funny about prison rape or assault). While it seems his experience wasn't as bad as it is for many others, I don't think there's anything wrong with being honest about how unpleasant it was; far too often we're happy for a veil of ignorance to separate us from such uncomfortable realities.
I'm always happy for first-person accounts to get out there – and if this makes some of the skinhead squad who idolise him more inclined to support better prison conditions, all the better.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ yeah, I agree, David. Though your idea of “better prison conditions” and mine are probably very different, I don’t think we should ever be casual about real violence in prison. Individual reform is more likely to come through safety and austere discipline, than through laxity and brutalization.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | Don't care who he is – a prison shouldn't be a theatre of cruelty. Whether you see it as primarily a tool for either punishment or rehabilitation, brutality behind bars is nothing to aspire to in a civilised society (and there's nothing funny about prison rape or assault). While it seems his experience wasn't as bad as it is for many others, I don't think there's anything wrong with being honest about how unpleasant it was; far too often we're happy for a veil of ignorance to separate us from such uncomfortable realities.
I'm always happy for first-person accounts to get out there – and if this makes some of the skinhead squad who idolise him more inclined to support better prison conditions, all the better. |
Prison will be unpleasant, think about the people in there. Rapists, murderers, illiterate thugs, drug dealers etc. It's an environment and culture all of it's own where those hove been there a long or repeated times understand the culture and how to work it. It's totally darwinian, the stong and cunning survive at the expense of the weak.
Prison guards are there to keep the peace, that's it. They aren't qualified to get a group of murderers in a circle singing kum bye yah.
Turning it into a holiday camp won't change the culture, because the people who get put in there bring it with them and it fosters there, all it will do is reduce the fear of prison as a deterrent.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Try putting that in a more specific context. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | Don't care who he is – a prison shouldn't be a theatre of cruelty. Whether you see it as primarily a tool for either punishment or rehabilitation, brutality behind bars is nothing to aspire to in a civilised society (and there's nothing funny about prison rape or assault). While it seems his experience wasn't as bad as it is for many others, I don't think there's anything wrong with being honest about how unpleasant it was; far too often we're happy for a veil of ignorance to separate us from such uncomfortable realities.
I'm always happy for first-person accounts to get out there – and if this makes some of the skinhead squad who idolise him more inclined to support better prison conditions, all the better. |
Prison will be unpleasant, think about the people in there. Rapists, murderers, illiterate thugs, drug dealers etc. It's an environment and culture all of it's own where those hove been there a long or repeated times understand the culture and how to work it. It's totally darwinian, the stong and cunning survive at the expense of the weak.
Prison guards are there to keep the peace, that's it. They aren't qualified to get a group of murderers in a circle singing kum bye yah.
Turning it into a holiday camp won't change the culture, because the people who get put in there bring it with them and it fosters there, all it will do is reduce the fear of prison as a deterrent. |
Yes, but the guards do not really keep the peace, to judge from the documentary showing now. They just lubricate the lawlessness and Darwinism with bonhomie and procedural pretence. It may not be an actual riot, but it’s not at all peace for those who are not king of the hill. Unless prisoners actually fear the law, they will continue to smash up the weak. And they clearly have no more fear of it than the worst students in a struggling school fear their teachers.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Nice opening. Imagine a school where you put all the worst of the worst bullies and thugs from the other schools, then put in the only teachers willing to work there
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I can't imagine a school where you put all the worst of the worst bullies and thugs from the other schools then put in the teachers willing to work there |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
Nice opening. Imagine a school where you put all the worst of the worst bullies and thugs from the other schools, then put in the only teachers willing to work there |
Yeah, with the added attraction that the bullies and thugs are not kids, but grown-ups inured to actual violence. Of course, they are not all bullies and thugs. In the C4 documentary, some are more or less damaged people, often deep in drugs, who have settled on the life of a mule - for drugs, money, sex or whatever. I’m not even sure that they can be rehabilitated, though there might be some chance. It’s tragic, but some people seem drawn to bad choices by nature.
I’m afraid I can’t share the modish “let’s be nice to them and all do rehab” assumptions that underpin the views of people who have not looked at what prison life is like. Most of these people only respect strength, and they see license as weakness. Years of reform seem to have made prison life itself more brutal, recidivism just as bad, and our streets less safe.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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| Wokko wrote: | | www.politicalite.com/ukip/ukip-to-considering-offering-tommy-robinson-party-membership/ |
This is unfortunate.
UKIP does need to reimagine itself. It possibly could successfully do so as a "Britain First", anti-immigration party.
But an anti-muslim party? |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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They were always likely to be. The point about these processes is that they must be seen to be followed, so that everyone has reasonable confidence in the system. Racist crackpots can’t be allowed to derail the processes. I don’t see much merit (or, frankly, logic) in pretending that these alleged crimes were being “swept under the carpet” in the middle of a series of mass trials of the alleged perpetrators. The more you think about that position, the stupider it becomes. |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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| Quote: | | I don’t see much merit (or, frankly, logic) in pretending that these alleged crimes were being “swept under the carpet” in the middle of a series of mass trials of the alleged perpetrators. |
Even the comrades at the BBC disagrees with you:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-45918845
"Child sexual abuse was often ignored or covered up: the protection of institutional reputation or community cohesion put before the protection of children." |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| thesoretoothsayer wrote: | | Quote: | | I don’t see much merit (or, frankly, logic) in pretending that these alleged crimes were being “swept under the carpet” in the middle of a series of mass trials of the alleged perpetrators. |
Even the comrades at the BBC disagrees with you:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-45918845
"Child sexual abuse was often ignored or covered up: the protection of institutional reputation or community cohesion put before the protection of children." |
I understand that complex thought is not for everyone - but do try to get with the program.
Let me simplify it for you - when people are actually being tried for particular crimes, there is not much purpose to pretending that society is actually turning a blind eye to their alleged crimes. Even a moron can see that that is correct, surely? |
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