 |
|
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Overall, do you think your life would be better if you were the opposite gender? |
| Yes |
|
23% |
[ 3 ] |
| No |
|
76% |
[ 10 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 13 |
|
| Author |
Message |
David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
|
|
|
 |
Nick - Pie Man
Joined: 04 Aug 2010
|
| Post subject: |  |
|
| K wrote: | | The direction this thread has headed in reminded me of the case of the Google employee manifesto and subsequent firing. Are you familiar with it? If so, what are your thoughts on it? If not, I'll drag out some details and provide links here. |
I've learned that there are some subjects which aren't discussed in polite company, and I want to stay an engineer for a good long time yet. |
|
|
|
|
Nick - Pie Man
Joined: 04 Aug 2010
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Which kind of feeds in to my answer to the original question. If I was born a female, I wouldn't need to be brilliant at my job any more. Maybe life would have been easier? |
|
|
|
|
K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
|
| Post subject: | |
|
For those not familiar with the internal Google manifesto, written by an employee...
Start for example with this, an earlier story:
http://fortune.com/2017/08/06/google-culture-change/
Key quote:
After a bit of throat-clearing, he makes his case. “At Google, we’re regularly told that implicit (unconscious) and explicit biases are holding women back in tech and leadership,” he says. “I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes,” and further, “and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership.”
Or this (from Elizabeth Weise, USA Today):
https://www.smh.com.au/technology/google-engineer-writes-10page-manifesto-against-companys-diversity-drive-20170806-gxqcfq.html
Key quote:
The overall tone of the essay is calm. The author acknowledges that there is bias that holds women back in tech and leadership. He doesn't suggest that women aren't capable of doing technical work but rather that the differences between men and women should be acknowledged.
He states that women tend to be more interested in people rather than things, "empathising vs systemising," whereas men have a higher driver for status and so tend to end up in leadership positions.
He also says that on average, women have more "neuroticism," as defined as "higher anxiety, lower stress tolerance".
The author doesn't believe that Google should engage in social engineering just to make its jobs equally appealing to men and women, calling "discriminatory" programs at the company available only to women and minorities.
TBC... |
|
|
|
|
think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Nick - Pie Man wrote: | | Which kind of feeds in to my answer to the original question. If I was born a female, I wouldn't need to be brilliant at my job any more. Maybe life would have been easier? |
i digress, the females i know in male orientated career areas tend to try harder, so as not to cop such derogatory comments as that one! You dont have to do it as well as, you have to do it better, because people doubt you before they meet you, or assume you got the job to make up the numbers. And let me tell you, back in the day, it wasnt easy.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
|
|
|
|
Nick - Pie Man
Joined: 04 Aug 2010
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| think positive wrote: | | such derogatory comments as that one! |
I haven't lost my touch  |
|
|
|
|
Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
|
|
|
|
|
stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Nick - Pie Man wrote: | | Which kind of feeds in to my answer to the original question. If I was born a female, I wouldn't need to be brilliant at my job any more. Maybe life would have been easier? |
You would make a very unattractive female. Your life wouldn't have been easier.
 
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| K wrote: | the internal Google manifesto
...
TBC... |
From the NY Times:
His 10-page memo, titled “Google’s Ideological Echo Chamber,” argued that “personality differences” between men and women — like a woman having a lower tolerance for stress — help explain why there were fewer women in engineering and leadership roles at the company. He said efforts by the company to reach equal representation of women in technology and leadership were “unfair, divisive, and bad for business.”
The memo was originally posted on an internal mailing list and was shared widely inside the company and throughout Silicon Valley. It struck a nerve and was harshly criticized inside a company and an entire industry struggling to explain why women are underrepresented in key engineering ranks and are often underpaid when compared with their male peers.
...
Mr. Damore’s memo was rebuked by a number of his fellow employees. Few Google employees came out publicly in defense of him, but some surreptitiously showed their support by leaking screenshots from internal Google posts of employees saying they planned to create blacklists of people who did not support the company’s diversity efforts.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/08/technology/google-engineer-fired-gender-memo.html
TBC... |
|
|
|
|
Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| K wrote: | | K wrote: | the internal Google manifesto
...
TBC... |
From the NY Times:
His 10-page memo, titled “Google’s Ideological Echo Chamber,” argued that “personality differences” between men and women — like a woman having a lower tolerance for stress — help explain why there were fewer women in engineering and leadership roles at the company. He said efforts by the company to reach equal representation of women in technology and leadership were “unfair, divisive, and bad for business.”
The memo was originally posted on an internal mailing list and was shared widely inside the company and throughout Silicon Valley. It struck a nerve and was harshly criticized inside a company and an entire industry struggling to explain why women are underrepresented in key engineering ranks and are often underpaid when compared with their male peers.
...
Mr. Damore’s memo was rebuked by a number of his fellow employees. Few Google employees came out publicly in defense of him, but some surreptitiously showed their support by leaking screenshots from internal Google posts of employees saying they planned to create blacklists of people who did not support the company’s diversity efforts.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/08/technology/google-engineer-fired-gender-memo.html
TBC... |
The modern KGB are far too subtle to establish and operate gulags, etc. They know it doesn’t work. So they enforce modes of speech and thinking by threatening unemployment and ostracism. It works often enough for the mass to nod numbly and convince themselves that they believe. Look up the reference for “How many fingers am I holding up, Winston ?” Or better still, read “Darkness at Noon” for an insight into how the psychological process works.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
|
|
|
|
thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
|
| Post subject: | |
|
I previously worked in a tech role.
Most of the programmers were men. Most of the business analysts (usually on better pay) were women.
People gravitate to the roles that interest or suit them.
For stating this fact, Damore was pilliored and forced from his job. |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
I think it was a little more complicated than that. See this thread, where we already discussed the issue:
http://magpies.net/nick/bb/viewtopic.php?p=1795204
I'll quote from my own post there, if I may:
| David wrote: | As a provocative blog post or published think-piece, such a paper would (I hope) widely be considered tolerable (even if many would vehemently argue against it), and I even agree with some of it. It certainly deals with a number of questions I've wondered about in the past re: equal gender representation in industries, which I feel are taboo and shouldn't be.
But as a circulated work memo – making claims such as "women on average are more neurotic than men" and the kind of assertions about male and female behaviour that belong in a pick-up artist manual – I can kind of see the argument that it's inappropriate. In this climate of hair-trigger sackings because of politically incorrect Twitter posts and the like, this guy was always going to get fired.
I think that's a system we need to fight back against as a whole, whatever side of politics the person in question happens to be on. But at the end of the day this was about an employer and a workplace memo they didn't like – kind of an in-house issue, really. |
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
|
| Post subject: | |
|
I'm not sure it is a "circulated work memo", David. It sounded to me like their equivalent of Nick's.
Actually, your re-post has made me think about your anti-employer views on the JDG stuff, etc. (http://magpies.net/nick/bb/viewtopic.php?p=1818382#1818382 onwards.) With your viewpoint, aren't you going too easy on either Google or JDG? |
|
|
|
|
KenH
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| stui magpie wrote: | | Nick - Pie Man wrote: | | Which kind of feeds in to my answer to the original question. If I was born a female, I wouldn't need to be brilliant at my job any more. Maybe life would have been easier? |
You would make a very unattractive female. Your life wouldn't have been easier.
|
Bloody hell, what would you have looked like? Scary to think about!
_________________
Cheers big ears |
|
|
|
|
K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
|
| Post subject: | |
|
From the same article:
The legal argument for Mr. Damore’s dismissal is more complicated. On one hand, there may be a way to argue that the memo and its recommendations — such as “stop alienating conservatives” — constitute a “concerted activity” to aid and protect his fellow workers, which may be protected under federal labor law. However, Google can argue that his memo created a hostile workplace for women.
“There’s no free speech in the private sector workplace,” said Katherine Stone, a labor and employment law professor at University of California, Los Angeles. “Clearly, the company was concerned that he was making the environment difficult for people to do their jobs.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/08/technology/google-engineer-fired-gender-memo.html |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
|
|
The Rules
FAQ
Usergroups
Calendar
Search
Log in
Register
