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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| Damien wrote: | LT ... are also pragmatic enough to see when something is damaged beyond repair someone has to go. That happened in My scenario.
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You mean someone was fired as a result of the whole process? Did LT directly instigate that?
How much does LT charge for their services? |
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Damien 
Me Noah & Flynn @ the G
Joined: 21 Jan 1999
Location: Croydon Vic
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| K wrote: | | Damien wrote: | LT ... are also pragmatic enough to see when something is damaged beyond repair someone has to go. That happened in My scenario.
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You mean someone was fired as a result of the whole process? Did LT directly instigate that?
How much does LT charge for their services? |
Nah nobody fired. Left of their own accord (eventually) can’t remember their cost but not cheap.
_________________
'Collingwood are the Bradmans of Football'
The Herald - 1930 |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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There is nothing intrinsically wrong with leading teams as a concept. It is prettty widely used across the business world. The team should set its own vision, agree the behaviours that will realise that vision, and team members should be trusting and humble enough to be open to feedback and committed to continuous improvement, etc. while it is not the only way to succeed, it is not very controversial.
The art lies in adapting these principles to specific cultures, groups and individuals, given that there are always conflicts and trade-offs to be made in any social setting. Given the way Beams, Thomas, Lumumba and Shaw all left in hissy fits of some kind, I have my doubts that this art was managed well by LT at CFC. But time can tell different tales, and maybe the result, which is now starting to emerge, will make it good.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Mugwump wrote: | There is nothing intrinsically wrong with leading teams as a concept. It is prettty widely used across the business world. The team should set its own vision, agree the behaviours that will realise that vision, and team members should be trusting and humble enough to be open to feedback and committed to continuous improvement, etc. while it is not the only way to succeed, it is not very controversial.
The art lies in adapting these principles to specific cultures, groups and individuals, given that there are always conflicts and trade-offs to be made in any social setting. Given the way Beams, Thomas, Lumumba and Shaw all left in hissy fits of some kind, I have my doubts that this art was managed well by LT at CFC. But time can tell different tales, and maybe the result, which is now starting to emerge, will make it good. |
To be fair,
Shaw didn't want to go, he was told.
Thomas was offered a shitpile more by Carlton, that and the opportunity to be re-united with MM made it a no brainer for him
Beams - Dad.
Harry O lost his plot and since has spiralled off into some self created mess.
Whether LT did any good at Collingwood or not ( and I'm personally not a fan), I can't see they had any influence on those 4 players leaving.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | There is nothing intrinsically wrong with leading teams as a concept. It is prettty widely used across the business world. The team should set its own vision, agree the behaviours that will realise that vision, and team members should be trusting and humble enough to be open to feedback and committed to continuous improvement, etc. while it is not the only way to succeed, it is not very controversial.
The art lies in adapting these principles to specific cultures, groups and individuals, given that there are always conflicts and trade-offs to be made in any social setting. Given the way Beams, Thomas, Lumumba and Shaw all left in hissy fits of some kind, I have my doubts that this art was managed well by LT at CFC. But time can tell different tales, and maybe the result, which is now starting to emerge, will make it good. |
To be fair,
Shaw didn't want to go, he was told.
Thomas was offered a shitpile more by Carlton, that and the opportunity to be re-united with MM made it a no brainer for him
Beams - Dad.
Harry O lost his plot and since has spiralled off into some self created mess.
Whether LT did any good at Collingwood or not ( and I'm personally not a fan), I can't see they had any influence on those 4 players leaving. |
Could be, but there are always reasons to leave if you want to find them. People invoke those reasons when they are generally not happy with the leadership or culture. They all seemed to leave within a short period after the intro to LTs
I am only going on supposition, but the public chatter around them makes them seem like people who might have had problems with the approach. Heater was a little different in wanting to stay, but I suspect he fell on the outer because the LT stuff really demands that every individual in the team wants to change, and he did not show signs of that. Lumumba was the kind of insightless critic of everyone else that is often poisonously empowered by “openness”.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| Damien wrote: | | K wrote: | | ... How much does LT charge for their services? |
... can’t remember their cost but not cheap. |
I don't know if LT have different services that cost different amounts, but I see they advertised one course last year at $3300 +GST per person, for up to 12 people. That covered 5 days (with the days spread out). If that's indicative (would it be?), it's roughly $150k for a football club (playing list plus senior coach only) for 5 days.
[Inspired by Rudey's opening post, for comparison purposes only, I have just checked and it seems you can buy a 0.7-ounce bottle of snake oil on amazon.com for $15.24 USD. Perhaps it's cheaper if we buy it in bulk (gallons?) in Chinatown, but in either case how do we ensure it is genuine snake oil we are purchasing?] |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| Quote: | ...
Darwin is also dismissive of a cottage industry of management gurus and leadership consultants that sell their services to sports teams to business organisation.
"There are people making money off this and its bullshit," he says. [sic]
His gripe is that the 'team-building' techniques they pedal, identify rather than create unity, and if they're used in an uncohesive team they do more harm than good.
"If people are together long enough they will build a collective outcome. Criminal organisations – the Mafia – they figure out what to do. They didn't invite teambuilders into their organisation to help them become more cohesive."
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http://www.afr.com/business/sport/darwins-theory-of-sporting-evolution-20170323-gv4yuj
I don't think (ex-Wallaby) Ben Darwin has got it quite right (re. analytics, etc.), but the quote above caught my eye, especially the "identify rather than create", etc. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ yeah, it is probably true. But I’m not sure the “ cohesiveness” of the mafia is a role model, unless you like sleeping in concrete.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | | There is nothing intrinsically wrong with leading teams as a concept. It is prettty widely used across the business world. |
The T Group approach is intrinsically damaging and destructive because it cannot cope with individuals with their own strong identities or those who have competing objectives. It's all about using the group to pressure everyone into conformity. A better approach is one which accepts pluralism as the norm, recognising that people are all different and will contribute unevenly and in different ways. Embracing difference and diversity is a much healthier and constructive approach to organisational well-being. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| RudeBoy wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | There is nothing intrinsically wrong with leading teams as a concept... |
The T Group approach is intrinsically damaging and destructive because it cannot cope with individuals with their own strong identities or those who have competing objectives. It's all about using the group to pressure everyone into conformity. ... |
Two questions: What exactly is the T Group approach? Are LT really using the T Group approach (and would they admit that)?
I see this somewhat amusing (in this context) snippet on the website of a well-known business school:
"... leaders rarely have a venue to test and/or update these limiting assumptions. A T-group provides such a venue because of its inherent safety (given that participants in a group are selected such that they are never from the same organization and highly unlikely to ever work together.) " |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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'T Group' is the generic term given to the group dynamics or psychological approach, sometimes called "encounter therapy".
Obviously there are wide variations in how this is applied, and some may be positive, some harmless, while others damaging, but in almost all cases, it involves employing group dynamics to influence/discipline individual behaviour. It emerged out of the field of psycho-analysis as a means of employers to get their workers disciplined by the group, rather than by management, and has often been resisted by workers and/or unions, for its risk of inflicting undue pressure on often vulnerable employees.
Whether Leading Teams use this term or not, I've no idea, but they are making a lot of money peddling T Group activities. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| RudeBoy wrote: | ...
Whether Leading Teams use this term or not, I've no idea, but they are making a lot of money peddling T Group activities. |
I see. Thanks for that background info. Yes, the real issue is what they're doing, not what they say they're doing (with regards to which they seem a little too vague and slippery for my liking). That quote in my previous post does hint that there may not be any good reason to believe the stuff LT does is "inherently safe". |
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MatthewBoydFanClub
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood
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| K wrote: | | Damien wrote: | | K wrote: | | ... How much does LT charge for their services? |
... can’t remember their cost but not cheap. |
I don't know if LT have different services that cost different amounts, but I see they advertised one course last year at $3300 +GST per person, for up to 12 people. That covered 5 days (with the days spread out). If that's indicative (would it be?), it's roughly $150k for a football club (playing list plus senior coach only) for 5 days.
[Inspired by Rudey's opening post, for comparison purposes only, I have just checked and it seems you can buy a 0.7-ounce bottle of snake oil on amazon.com for $15.24 USD. Perhaps it's cheaper if we buy it in bulk (gallons?) in Chinatown, but in either case how do we ensure it is genuine snake oil we are purchasing?] |
You've reminded me, back in the nineties we hired a group of management consultants to find us monetary savings at our factory. They were sacked after six months when it was discovered that the amount of the savings they were recommending us to implement were lower than their cost of services that they had been charging us to that point. |
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VicParkTragic
Joined: 17 Oct 2010
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| K wrote: | | BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | ...
I highly doubt it was ever intended as an opportunity to indulge bullying. ... In a football environment where you have a number of individuals from a diverse background I would have though LT's would have provided a good vehicle to bring individuals together into a common cause. ... |
I don't mean the clubs or LT wanted it to be an exercise in bullying. I don't even think the bullies among the players thought consciously of it that way. (I doubt (m)any in the act of bullying think of it as bullying.) It just seems that LT enabled and encouraged their behaviour. |
You’re right it certainly wasn’t an invite for bullying. LT see the process as a “matter of fact” “take it on the chin and improve” “opportunities” style approach. The review process asks your peers to consider what you need to stop doing, keep doing and start doing. So some of your feedback (hopefully) will be positive but it can be hard hitting if everyone gets right into it.
In some environments it could be good but you’d have to have a crew of people who were completely trusting of each other. And does that exist in the average workplace? Not that I know of.
_________________
Living in Geelong, barracking for the 'pies! |
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