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MatthewBoydFanClub
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood
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| I can't tell either whether it worked or didn't work. All I can say is that you shouldn't dismiss any research tools that could offer you assistance without giving it a try. The military may think it has all the answers in their leadership programs but it doesn't hurt to borrow from outside bodies in order to see things from an different perspective. Monash and Slim were know as outsiders in the military tradition and in some ways it served them well on the battlefield because they weren't bound by the military tradition. Bolton is an outsider in terms of his football background not having played AFL footy. It could be a handicap or it could be a positive. You never know these things until they play out. Some AFL clubs have said great things about Leading Teams. So instead of criticising Leading Teams why don't we just see LT for what it offered us at the time in giving us a different perspective to leadership on a football field. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ we’re talking past each other. I don’t think we’re in fundamental disagreement on the key point. I just think, from some experience, that Monash and Slim and military applicability are not very relevant to whether LT worked for the Pies. I don’t say that Bucks was wrong to try it. Maybe we’re just seeing the fruit of it now. My theory remains that the apparent progression -not yet assured -is mostly about talent and experience building, but we’re all guessing.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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MatthewBoydFanClub
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood
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| Mugwump wrote: | | ^ we’re talking past each other. I don’t think we’re in fundamental disagreement on the key point. I just think, from some experience, that Monash and Slim and military applicability are not very relevant to whether LT worked for the Pies. I don’t say that Bucks was wrong to try it. Maybe we’re just seeing the fruit of it now. My theory remains that the apparent progression -not yet assured -is mostly about talent and experience building, but we’re all guessing. |
It's true what you're saying but I think back to what Malthouse used to say and what Eddie says, which is finding that edge which gives you an advantage over the opposition teams. It may be only 1%, or even less, but it could make the difference between winning or losing a GF, so you can never dismiss something however seeming fanciful, if it can give you that edge. And I think Buckley is a strong believer in that as well. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | | ... I think back to what Malthouse used to say ..., which is finding that edge which gives you an advantage over the opposition teams. It may be only 1%, or even less, but it could make the difference between winning or losing a GF, so you can never dismiss something however seeming fanciful, if it can give you that edge. And I think Buckley is a strong believer in that as well. |
There are two problems that complicate this picture, though. The first is that if you just randomly search for a needle in a haystack, you are unlikely to find it --- a big issue when your search resources are limited. The bigger problem is that it ignores the fact that some things you try can actually harm the organization. They may be "(-1) percenters". They may do long-term harm and be "(-10) percenters". (This is why no one is happy about Essendon's uncontrolled drug experiments on its players.) LT may have destroyed some players' careers.
I don't especially wish to agree with anything Aker says, but I have sympathy for his views on LT. |
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glasseyevfx
Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Location: Gold Coast
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At the end of the day its supposed to be about getting the best out of your individual players. The army bootcamp model is a poor one for footballers. If a soldier is aggrieved about his/her training they have very limited recourse and if you do its buried. Its just not the case in professional sport. I'm not saying you have to walk around being PC its just that if you fail someone because some idiot reads a brochure about this being the toughest hardest training you only have yourself to blame - being bullied by alpha morons isn't for everyone and if you think your getting the best out of ALL your players your only in denial about results.
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We shall set our course by the stars and not ships that pass in the night |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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https://www.smh.com.au/sport/all-about-aka-20100913-159be.html
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''As I saw it, it had as many negatives as positives,'' Akermanis writes. ''I saw guys given power who weren't especially good at handling it. I also saw a pack mentality evolve.''
As part of Leading Teams, players are given a peer-assessment sheet, on which they comment on the attributes and flaws of one player or coach. Three headings are used - stop doing, start doing and keep doing.
Akermanis was one of the first 10 players to front the playing group and, by his own admission, the list of items under the heading ''stop'' was lengthy.
It included:
■Taking the focus off the team (beard, hair, boots, handstands, media).
■Referring to what he did in Brisbane and comparing. Thinking your way is right way.
■Turning up late.
■Taking things personally and thinking people are against you and your opinions.
''My most vocal critics were Scott West and, to a lesser extent, Bob Murphy,'' Akermanis writes, adding most of the complaints were misconceptions, in particular being late for training.
Giving up his celebratory handstands, Aka says, was an issue with a ''vocal minority who failed to appreciate what the handstand meant to me''.
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/friend-tells-of-jason-akermaniss-bad-hair-day/news-story/8d1914d9cdbfb813c3dbaeec19a06f36
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It was during this review when one of his teammates, believed to be veteran centreman Scott West, challenged Akermanis on his physical appearance, in particular the blond colour of his hair and his ginger goatee beard.
"You can imagine Aker's bemusement when they hit him with that," a close friend of the controversial star said yesterday.
"I mean, here the club was looking at ways to improve on their poor finish to the year (The Dogs faded badly at the end of the season to finish 13th) and someone was having a go at one of their star recruits about his hair."
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One incident Akermanis took issue with his teammates on was their decision to ban his post-match handstand. Akermanis introduced the handstand at the Brisbane Lions in 1999, initially as a thank-you sign to his parents-in-law, who are deaf.
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Understandably, Akermanis was miffed when his Bulldog teammates rounded on him after he re-introduced the handstand after the Bulldogs defeated Fremantle in Darwin in June, 2007.
"They said the handstand took the focus off the team culture and made it an individual thing," his friend said.
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Damien 
Me Noah & Flynn @ the G
Joined: 21 Jan 1999
Location: Croydon Vic
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^^^^
Leading Teams is all about team harmony not individuals. Hardly surprising that he’s not a fan; and that’s probably where the system is flawed with sports teams when you have a flamboyant guy like Akermanis. If he was doing his job on the field and not doing any damage off it, you need to be mature enough to just deal with that. I think for a footy team to be successful you need to be mates with everyone pretty much. There are exceptions obviously. At a normal workplace you don’t have to be friends. Probably better if you are, but at the end of the day You just gotta work together.
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'Collingwood are the Bradmans of Football'
The Herald - 1930 |
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MagpieDynasty 
Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Location: Adelaide
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| ronrat wrote: | | They tried this rubbish in Defence in the 90s with all the team building stuff. The trouble was the entire focus of miltary training is team building, group and individual problem solving, leadership, discipline, etc. So we had all these Pollyannas and the like trying to tell 25 year service old veterans who had risen through the ranks and were now Senior NCOs being told how to deal with situations they encountered every day of their working lives. A lot of tears and "why are you so mean" etc. In the end they dumped it as not cost effective, no benefit, divisive and time wasting. |
Haha YES, i remember that stuff very well. If I recall correctly it would've been circa 1994 and it was rolled out to SNCO's and NCO's, instructed by civvies who in all honesty, may have been academically suited to facilitating, but they really didn't have an understanding with regards the service culture.
I had not long completed the (affectionately coined) Superman course when i did it and I took not one thing of benefit!
As for LT's and similar programs, i'm equally unconvinced as to what tangible benefits come from these types of programs, particularly in elite sporting arena's. A suitable appointment such as a bloke that's been at the club for 10 years plus, one who knows the club culture inside/out, one who has experienced the very lows and highs, one who wouldn't suffer fools all to readily and one who could smell BS a mile off - Enter Nick Maxwell. I think the club have made a very astute appointment there!
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The new Magpie Dynasty is just a season away!! |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/leading-us-up-the-garden-path/news-story/603f3b98d1f87a0be7193da0fac2bc92
| Jason Akermanis (20/5/11) wrote: |
LEADING Teams is and was nothing more than pop psychology.
... I wonder how the Bulldogs are going with their program this week? Maybe, they should revisit the "CRU" that the Leading Teams program helped them implement.
CRU stands for "Consistent, Ruthless and United". Didn't see much of that in their 123-point defeat on Sunday.
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Fads come into vogue quickly, but disappear just as quickly if they have no real value. Having come from a very successful team, the one part that was elite, besides the playing group and team support, was the professional behavioural psychologist.
Some teams think that a program like the one invented by a school teacher (yes, a school teacher) will help professional sportsmen win ultimate glory. ...
It starts out with the group assessing the senior coach, due to the fact that he is the leader and needs feedback and assessment.
The rest of the team is split into groups and given sheets of paper to write down three words to describe the person. They will then make suggestions on what that person should start doing, stop doing and keep doing.
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Then after the consensus is reached among the group, a representative is elected to present their findings to the senior coach, who is sitting on a chair facing all of them.
I was a little lost after the first session. I'd never seen such open bullying up close since Nathan Chapman was ironed out doing 300m runs in my first year.
Seriously, the Leading Teams concept had rookies giving senior teammates advice on football actions on the field. In this program you don't need to earn the right to give criticism, just give it so it can be heard.
When I walked out of these sessions, all I could work out was that this was nothing more than a communication program. ...
It went on from player to player to player. Then eventually I had my go. I took it in my stride considering some of the unrealistic rubbish from a loud minority.
Then I left the room. No follow-up, no debrief, no opportunity to talk to someone about any issues that might have come up.
Listening to some teammates was like listening to their personal problems, not what was meant to be discussed: How could I be a better footballer?
No, this group wanted to talk about things out of their control (media perception and work) and handstands that looked like they were too individual. About as individual as the bloke lining up for goal on behalf of the team. Too much for these blokes.
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The tension after the sessions is degrading and doesn't cater for individuals. Something we never had to worry about in Brisbane.
Our guy Dr Phil Jauncey did profiling on each player. It helped each one individually.
Yes, we are all individuals, but this program doesn't think much of them.
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Note the value of a real sports psychologist:
"Having come from a very successful team, the one part that was elite ... was the professional behavioural psychologist. ...
Our guy Dr Phil Jauncey did profiling on each player. It helped each one individually."
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VicParkTragic
Joined: 17 Oct 2010
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I worked for an organisation that used LT’s to try and shape the culture. Craig Biddiscombe facilitated the process over a number of sessions. He was a pretty good facilitator I must say. Had limited impact at this particular work place for a whole host of reasons. Basically you work out a “trademark” as an organisation then figure out the behaviours that need to be adopted to maintain the trademark. After that each team member has peer reviews looking at how their behaviours are supporting the trademark. It can be brutal and a lot of people were upset and stressed by this level of scrutiny. I can see how it might work in a football environment but in the environment I was in it was limited because people held back their criticism to keep the peace.
It is not ‘psychology’. It’s really a set of rules that are enforced. How hard you enforce them as a group is upnto the group but as soon as it is watered down or exceptions are made I think it falls apart.
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Living in Geelong, barracking for the 'pies! |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| VicParkTragic wrote: | I worked for an organisation that used LT’s to try and shape the culture. ... It can be brutal and a lot of people were upset and stressed by this level of scrutiny. I can see how it might work in a football environment but in the environment I was in it was limited because people held back their criticism to keep the peace.
It is not ‘psychology’. It’s really a set of rules that are enforced. How hard you enforce them as a group is upnto the group but as soon as it is watered down or exceptions are made I think it falls apart. |
Interesting. Actually, people holding back their criticism to keep the peace is one factor that may mitigate LT's (allegedly) harmful effects in a "normal" workplace. It's interesting that, even then, people found it brutal. In the football environment, it does seem like some grasped it as an opportunity to indulge in rampant bullying. |
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MatthewBoydFanClub
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood
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| K wrote: | | VicParkTragic wrote: | I worked for an organisation that used LT’s to try and shape the culture. ... It can be brutal and a lot of people were upset and stressed by this level of scrutiny. I can see how it might work in a football environment but in the environment I was in it was limited because people held back their criticism to keep the peace.
It is not ‘psychology’. It’s really a set of rules that are enforced. How hard you enforce them as a group is upnto the group but as soon as it is watered down or exceptions are made I think it falls apart. |
Interesting. Actually, people holding back their criticism to keep the peace is one factor that may mitigate LT's (allegedly) harmful effects in a "normal" workplace. It's interesting that, even then, people found it brutal. In the football environment, it does seem like some grasped it as an opportunity to indulge in rampant bullying. |
I highly doubt it was ever intended as an opportunity to indulge bullying. Like any management system, it's only as good as the individuals who participate in it. When it fails individuals blame the course rather than their own failure to learn from it. In a football environment where you have a number of individuals from a diverse background I would have though LT's would have provided a good vehicle to bring individuals together into a common cause. We're not privy to knowing if it worked or not at Collingwood, but it wouldn't have helped having players come and go at the end of each season (most workplaces have a stable workforce unlike a football club). |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | ...
I highly doubt it was ever intended as an opportunity to indulge bullying. ... In a football environment where you have a number of individuals from a diverse background I would have though LT's would have provided a good vehicle to bring individuals together into a common cause. ... |
I don't mean the clubs or LT wanted it to be an exercise in bullying. I don't even think the bullies among the players thought consciously of it that way. (I doubt (m)any in the act of bullying think of it as bullying.) It just seems that LT enabled and encouraged their behaviour.
Following Damien's and VPT's comments above, I think the lack of diversity in typical workplaces may have in essence protected them from being damaged by LT. It's the diversity at football clubs that makes LT toxic for them. Scott West, for example, does not come out of all this stuff looking good. (I wonder, for instance, whether West thinks his own hair bleaching was somehow different from what he was attacking.) I think what Aker revealed is pretty damning of LT in general. Perhaps the clubs that think LT was helpful were already highly homogeneous in their makeup. |
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Damien
Me Noah & Flynn @ the G
Joined: 21 Jan 1999
Location: Croydon Vic
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LT can’t wave a magic wand and fix every cultural problem in a team. They are also pragmatic enough to see when something is damaged beyond repair someone has to go. That happened in My scenario.
I get the impression our culture at CFC is working well right now. Some of That may or may not be due to LT’s work under Bucks several years ago. Couldn’t see any need for any outside intervention right now.
_________________
'Collingwood are the Bradmans of Football'
The Herald - 1930 |
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