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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| Your long term view is correct P4S, in the sense that only time will tell if we have genuinely 'turned the corner', but I reckon we should also give credit to Bucks for the quality of his coaching so far this year. |
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Redlight
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | My position is quite clear - I didn't dismiss Buckley's coaching lightly - he'd been at it for three and a half years before I decided, reluctantly, that he didn't then seem to have a clue. Similarly, the fact that the team won well last night isn't going to change my thinking overnight. Teams have good games and bad games and one's appraisal of the team's progress shouldn't be made by reference to what's just happened but rather by reference to what seems to be happening over a period of time. Buckley is a great of the Club (he wasn't allowed to wear Barry Price's number for nothing) and I'd love to see him succeed on the big stage. Nevertheless, I will continue to want him replaced as coach until I see a body of evidence establishing that he knows what he's doing. At the moment, what I see is that we murdered Adelaide in the midfield on the back of 4 performances (Sidey, Grundey, Pendey and Trelley) all worthy of 3 Brownlow votes. In a very limited sense of "good", it's good that Grundy was rucking, rather than playing FF and that Sidebottom and Pendlebury were in the midfield rather than on the half-back flank but I'm not sure that required any special insight.
Perhaps it's all building to something. I certainly hope it is - but we are way short of knowing, yet, whether anything much has changed. |
To suggest that Buckley 'doesn't have a clue' and that he has to build a 'body of evidence' to convince you otherwise is more illuminating of your attitude to the man, rather than your ability to asses his coaching.
For your statements to be true Buckley must've been have been able to pull the wool over the eyes of experienced football administrators and players alike for years. Or maybe there's some club-wide conspiracy to cover for him because, well I don't know...Eddie.
I think we all need to realise that we cannot not make these judgements accurately from this side of the fence. We do not know more than the AFL professionals that work with him day in and day out. He didn't survive this long and remain as coach (even after a review) because he speaks well. Good footy people have seen him in action and they believe that he can coach.
Face it, the assessment you made years ago is, quite simply, wrong. |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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I don't accept any of that. You are inferring things into my assessment that I neither believe nor accept. I didn't say Buckley "doesn't have a clue". I am not so unsubtle. What I said was that - by mid-2015 when he finally broke me and I stopped going to watch Collingwood every week as I had done for the previous 50 years - "he didn't then seem to have a clue". I stand by that. It may seem, at the moment, to some of you a little less like he doesn't have a clue but I'm a long way off changing my mind. I remain, for what it's worth, surprised that he still has the job. I like Buckley. It certainly isn't personal - I don't have any negative "attitude to the man". I just haven't seen much evidence that he can coach.
Edit: The "assessment I made years ago" was made at half-time in the 2015 Footscray-Collingwood game at Etihad (during the fifth in a string of 6 consecutive losses). Since that day, Collingwood has won 22 of 52 games.
Last edited by Pies4shaw on Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right
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| swoop42 wrote: | How is tagging the opposition's best midfielder around the stoppages a masterful coaching move?
I would have thought it was bloody obvious option for all coaches in every game played and it's a pity it wasn't enacted against Mitchell.
Buckley might be coaching well but to me it's evidence that he's finally arrived at the standard we naively hoped he could deliver from day 1 and a standard more experienced assistant coaches can often deliver from the outset.
He may yet be seen as a great coach in the future but he hasn't always been one and it's rewriting history to suggest it. |
+1 really good post Swoop - and bleeding obvious.. to some
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All Aboard!! Choo Choo!!! |
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right
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| Redlight wrote: |
To suggest that Buckley 'doesn't have a clue' and that he has to build a 'body of evidence' to convince you otherwise is more illuminating of your attitude to the man, rather than your ability to asses his coaching.
For your statements to be true Buckley must've been have been able to pull the wool over the eyes of experienced football administrators and players alike for years. Or maybe there's some club-wide conspiracy to cover for him because, well I don't know...Eddie.
I think we all need to realise that we cannot not make these judgements accurately from this side of the fence. We do not know more than the AFL professionals that work with him day in and day out. He didn't survive this long and remain as coach (even after a review) because he speaks well. Good footy people have seen him in action and they believe that he can coach.
Face it, the assessment you made years ago is, quite simply, wrong. |
A lot of this imo is rubbish - we all know Bucks has only survived up to this point because of one man and one man only - Eddie (and his personal promise to Bucks when he retired due to his hammies, which we also know is almost certainly a fact) - and yes it is true, any other professional sporting club in the world in any sport would not have even let him get to this point - you're not being realistic. No one has ever said he pulled the wool over peoples eyes, but knowing a lot about 'football' and being able to administer that tactically and convey that are two totally different things...
If Bucks does well and has finally turned the corner to become a gun coach then great, fantastic even... but the club is a lot bigger then these two individuals - it must be that way, or we are lost... and that's exactly where we have been up to this point - we need to see constancy consistently - no ifs or buts.
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All Aboard!! Choo Choo!!! |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | I don't accept any of that. You are inferring things into my assessment that I neither believe nor accept. I didn't say Buckley "doesn't have a clue". I am not so unsubtle. What I said was that - by mid-2015 when he finally broke me and I stopped going to watch Collingwood every week as I had done for the previous 50 years - "he didn't then seem to have a clue". I stand by that. It may seem, at the moment, to some of you a little less like he doesn't have a clue but I'm a long way off changing my mind. I remain, for what it's worth, surprised that he still has the job. I like Buckley. It certainly isn't personal - I don't have any negative "attitude to the man". I just haven't seen much evidence that he can coach. |
We're each entitled to our view, and yours is shared by many others, though I'm not one of them.
I have a really good friend who is similarly a fierce critic of Bucks, and I told him only last week that I felt sorry for him, because when Bucks takes us on the journey to our next flag, I'll be passionately excited and thrilled, while he will be continually skeptical and restrained in his enjoyment. Even if we win the flag, he'll be like an outsider, not an insider, like those of us who are supporters of Bucks.
My advice to my friend was, regardless of his past skepticism/criticism of Bucks, the past is the past, and it's irrelevant to today. Maybe Bucks was a poor coach in past years (though I don't think so), but all that matters in 2018 is his coaching in 2018. So if he really wants to enjoy OUR ride to glory, it's time to get on board and get behind Bucks and the team. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| The Boy Who Cried Wolf wrote: | ...
... we all know Bucks has only survived up to this point because of one man and one man only - Eddie (and his personal promise to Bucks when he retired due to his hammies, which we also know is almost certainly a fact) - and yes it is true, any other professional sporting club in the world in any sport would not have even let him get to this point - you're not being realistic. No one has ever said he pulled the wool over peoples eyes, but knowing a lot about 'football' and being able to administer that tactically and convey that are two totally different things...
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Where does this "personal promise" upon retirement claim come from and what exactly was alleged to have been promised (surely not coach for life)? It's a big claim, and if it's true it's quite damning (with regards to the president, that is)... |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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| AN_Inkling wrote: | | swoop42 wrote: | How is tagging the opposition's best midfielder around the stoppages a masterful coaching move?
I would have thought it was bloody obvious option for all coaches in every game played and it's a pity it wasn't enacted against Mitchell.
Buckley might be coaching well but to me it's evidence that he's finally arrived at the standard we naively hoped he could deliver from day 1 and a standard more experienced assistant coaches can often deliver from the outset.
He may yet be seen as a great coach in the future but he hasn't always been one and it's rewriting history to suggest it. |
What is masterful then? Was it restructuring our forward line with our first 7 options missing? Or our defence with only one tall defender available?
It's easy to downplay any coaching moves as obvious. If it really was that simple, Sloane, Cripps and Cameron would be shutdown every game. It's well enough to want to do something, to do if effectively is another.
The coach cops the criticism when we play poorly and Bucks certainly has had that. For that to mean anything he also deserves to be given credit when we go well. We played well above expectation against the Giants and the Crows, some of the credit has to go to the coach for such elevated performances. And it's a standard well above what we'd have expected from any coach. This is not to say that Bucks is the best coach in the comp, but if we produced performances like that every week then he would be. |
At the end of the day a lot of how you judge the performance of Buckley comes down to how you rate our list.
The major source of frustration for myself and I expect many others is the belief that our talent pool was better than the results of recent seasons suggested, it was capable of playing finals and we weren't as pessimistic about our list and short term prospects if a change of coach had to occur.
I'll always maintain the Western Bulldogs won a flag with no more talented a list than us.
What they did do though is appoint a highly experienced coach with a history of wringing the most out of his playing group at amateur level.
Beveridge was able to hit the ground running in 2015, the playing group embraced the message he was selling, they played with manic intensity in 2016 and reached the finals despite being hit hard with injuries like us.
It was a prime example of how a good coach can elevate a group of individuals collectively above the pool of talent they possess.
Of course time stands still for no coach, challenges always present and with a drop off in intensity and form from the highs of 2016 the lack of talent at the Bulldogs has subsequently been exposed with names like Liberatore, Morris, Adams, Boyd, Dunkley, Smith, Dickson, Picken and Roughead among several others all suffering either injury concerns or form regression since the Premiership.
When you add in the departed Hamling, Stringer, Boyd and Murphy then that Western Bulldogs side named this week looks far from Premiership material, it lacks star power and I'd rather be coaching our list going forward if given the choice.
So what now for Buckley?
I for one was happy to part ways last season but could accept that our competitive performances and seemingly healthy player/coach relations was cause for a single last ray of hope.
It was the last though. Time for a new dawn is now.
The review recommended additional support in the coaches box and so far the signs are good that Longmuir and Hocking will make a difference.
Our defensive structures in particular last night looked the most organised they have under Buckley I thought and for the first time ever we are seeing a clearly defined Buckley brand of football developing.
This is cause for great optimism moving forward as it's what we have wanted to witness more than anything else.
It's still early days but let's see what unfolds and support.
I for one still hope Buckley becomes the coach I thought he could be way back when. I naively believed this coaching caper would be simple for him. Fair to say I was wrong on that front.
I want to believe again Bucks.
Please provide overwhelming evidence in 2018.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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scoobydoo
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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| The Boy Who Cried Wolf wrote: | | Redlight wrote: |
To suggest that Buckley 'doesn't have a clue' and that he has to build a 'body of evidence' to convince you otherwise is more illuminating of your attitude to the man, rather than your ability to asses his coaching.
For your statements to be true Buckley must've been have been able to pull the wool over the eyes of experienced football administrators and players alike for years. Or maybe there's some club-wide conspiracy to cover for him because, well I don't know...Eddie.
I think we all need to realise that we cannot not make these judgements accurately from this side of the fence. We do not know more than the AFL professionals that work with him day in and day out. He didn't survive this long and remain as coach (even after a review) because he speaks well. Good footy people have seen him in action and they believe that he can coach.
Face it, the assessment you made years ago is, quite simply, wrong. |
A lot of this imo is rubbish - we all know Bucks has only survived up to this point because of one man and one man only - Eddie (and his personal promise to Bucks when he retired due to his hammies, which we also know is almost certainly a fact) - and yes it is true, any other professional sporting club in the world in any sport would not have even let him get to this point - you're not being realistic. No one has ever said he pulled the wool over peoples eyes, but knowing a lot about 'football' and being able to administer that tactically and convey that are two totally different things...
If Bucks does well and has finally turned the corner to become a gun coach then great, fantastic even... but the club is a lot bigger then these two individuals - it must be that way, or we are lost... and that's exactly where we have been up to this point - we need to see constancy consistently - no ifs or buts. |
The part where you write “we all know” in completely wrong . You don’t know
And in fact are not even close. As Most on here |
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right
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RudeBoy, your approach is too simplistic imo - either you're with us, or you're against us - doesn't cut it imo so don't feel sorry for your mate, we'll all be excited and thrilled if it comes around to the point where we are up in it to our necks - your mate won't be an outsider, I know I won't feel like one if it gets to where we all want the club to be!! But presently, we're are miles off it - we had a fantastic win last night but right now that's all it was - one fantastic win, where we finally played four quarters of good team football. We'll need to see a lot more of that if we're to get anywhere near a premiership cup, and even if that happens - we still may not get to drink from the well - nothing is 'meant to be', we have to make it happen, and get a bit of luck. We're all in it together, because either you are a real Pies supporter and every loss cuts like a knife and your hearts in it or you're just simply not and then it didn't really matter anyway.
Floreat Pica
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All Aboard!! Choo Choo!!! |
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right
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| scoobydoo wrote: |
The part where you write “we all know” in completely wrong . You don’t know
And in fact are not even close. As Most on here |
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but we'll have to agree to disagree then because if your mind is closed there is not much I or others can do about it - it's a simple as that.
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All Aboard!! Choo Choo!!! |
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right
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| K wrote: |
Where does this "personal promise" upon retirement claim come from and what exactly was alleged to have been promised (surely not coach for life)? It's a big claim, and if it's true it's quite damning (with regards to the president, that is)... |
Only the stanchest of one eyed supporters would disbelieve it - there is no other explanation that makes any sense - I'll stand by what I say.
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All Aboard!! Choo Choo!!! |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| RudeBoy wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | I don't accept any of that. You are inferring things into my assessment that I neither believe nor accept. I didn't say Buckley "doesn't have a clue". I am not so unsubtle. What I said was that - by mid-2015 when he finally broke me and I stopped going to watch Collingwood every week as I had done for the previous 50 years - "he didn't then seem to have a clue". I stand by that. It may seem, at the moment, to some of you a little less like he doesn't have a clue but I'm a long way off changing my mind. I remain, for what it's worth, surprised that he still has the job. I like Buckley. It certainly isn't personal - I don't have any negative "attitude to the man". I just haven't seen much evidence that he can coach. |
We're each entitled to our view, and yours is shared by many others, though I'm not one of them.
I have a really good friend who is similarly a fierce critic of Bucks, and I told him only last week that I felt sorry for him, because when Bucks takes us on the journey to our next flag, I'll be passionately excited and thrilled, while he will be continually skeptical and restrained in his enjoyment. Even if we win the flag, he'll be like an outsider, not an insider, like those of us who are supporters of Bucks.
My advice to my friend was, regardless of his past skepticism/criticism of Bucks, the past is the past, and it's irrelevant to today. Maybe Bucks was a poor coach in past years (though I don't think so), but all that matters in 2018 is his coaching in 2018. So if he really wants to enjoy OUR ride to glory, it's time to get on board and get behind Bucks and the team. |
My view that the Coach should be replaced is not an emotional one. My barracking is - but then, I have never barracked for the coach, I always barrack for the players. I'm right behind the players - when they kick a goal (at any time since the early 1960s), I've never thought "Great, that's one for the coach" and I won't be starting, now. I'm not conflicted about wanting Collingwood to win and if they suddenly won the flag, I would be as pleased as anyone.
You're entitled to your view, of course. I had intended to leave the discussion where it was after your post at the top of this page. However, Redlight's implication that I have some sort of "attitude" to Buckley that dictates my view required a response.
If Collingwood had won 50 of its last 60 games and I was still persisting with the view that there was a problem with the coaching, that would plainly be unreasonable. In fact, of course, we've won 23 of the last 60. That's not a great return and, in my respectful opinion, it requires a little magical thinking to believe that it's all turned around because we've won two in a row, after losing two in a row. |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| Fair enough P4S. |
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qldmagpie67
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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I posed this question to a mod earlier today and I'll ask nicks now the same question.
The past 2 weeks the coach has gone to Pendles then Sidey and asked them to sacrifice there own games and tag the oppositions most dangerous player at the contests. This is the captain and vice captain and arguably our 2 best players and both who play vital roles in our attacking chances. He could have asked someone like Thomas or Crisp or Maynard but he went to his leaders.
Was this a conscious decision as a message to the group as a whole that the leaders are willing to do anything for the team ?
It's a interesting debate for mine
The same as the way he used Treloar & Sidey at FF then last night he isolates Stephenson there for his pace on a slow track against bigger defenders.
I'm not saying this is all Buckley he may well have taken advice of his assistants but it does show a pattern of be willing to change things up something many including me have been critical of in the past |
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