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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Post subject: Rehab vs punishment |  |
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Some of you may have seen this story, a guy convicted of manslaughter for a 1 punch kill has been on day release on Saturdays to play local football as part of his rehab program.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/sons-life-means-nothing-one-punch-killer-allowed-play-local-footy-league-131516391.html
The mother of the person he killed found out and quite reasonably arced up. If someone kills your child you're unlikely to want anything less than pain and suffering on that person.
Due to the media coverage, the state government has cancelled his day release while a "review" is conducted. The opposition has leapt onto the bandwagon wanting their own review.
The question isn't about this case so much, but there are apparently a number of prisoners at the minimum security prison who are playing local football as a part of their rehab. This guy got sentenced to 9 1/2 years with a non parole period of 6 years. He's served 4 years thereabouts.
| Quote: | Dhurringile is a low-security prison which has allowed inmates to play in the local league for the past few years.
“Those allowed to have weekend leave is a matter for Corrections Victoria, not for politicians; it tends to be made on the basis of behaviour while in prison and risk level,” Attorney General Martin Pakula said. |
| Quote: | | The team’s coach admitted he wasn’t aware of Closter’s violent criminal past and described him as a great guy who does a lot for the club, including fundraising. |
I have no invested interest here either way, I can see both sides of the argument. A bloke with (as far as I know) no prior history had too much to drink, punched someone and they died. He goes to gaol.
Should he be made to suffer everyday or, if he shows good behaviour is it fair to let him participate in community activities such as playing sport?
Thoughts?
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I get it. He got sentenced to 9 12 years with a non parole period of 6 years. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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The question shouldn’t be rehab vs punishment, I reckon. All jail sentences are already punishment of some kind. The question I’d ask is, how much of the (given the prison conditions in this country, already limited) potential of rehabilitation for prisoners do we want to sacrifice in order to look tough?
I have no doubt at all that playing team sport has a rehabilitative effect and helps crims adjust to future life outside. You also want them to have some kind of motivation and something to live for. The old saying “the devil works with idle hands” applies here. It’s just a no-brainer for me.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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Only a fool would not want some kind of rehabilitation of prisoners. The question is whether this is achieved by making prison a place of austere, uncomfortable discipline and re-education, or whether it is best achieved by PlayStations, large doses of human rights, gyms, days out and drugs which seem to be the programme in many of our prisons today.
You have to do some pretty unpleasant things to go into prison today. Does anyone have any data which shows that soft “rehab” actually works better for the prisoner or community, than a hard, unyielding regime of education and indoctrination designed to reinforce self-discipline and obedience to lawful authority ?
Again, I urge anyone who can find it to watch the current .channel 4 programme on Durham prison. It is British, but I do not think the conditions it describes are so different from those in Australia. There is no real respect for the law or authority in that place, just a game. The lax regime is making no one any happier or safer. Any attempt to reform it is usually labeled “authoritarian”, but it is not “authoritarian” to hate crime and want to see it punished, or to want lawless thugs to come to heel. No one is more authoritarian than a violent or repeated criminal.
On this specific case, he sounds like a limited risk to the community, but if he got 9 years I would not be granting him any “out” rights until much later in his sentence. Prison is about due punishment of responsible individuals AND rehabilitation. This seems to me to prioritise the latter over the former.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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The three R's - Retribution Retribution Retribution.
We have a majority of people sucked in by the media seeking retribution. The days of breaking rocks are over, we worked out that never worked and made criminals into super hardened criminals. Many deem prison as a holiday camp and they get that perception from the media. If you've never been inside a prison you are clueless. It's so good in prison, everyone is trying to avoid going in there and the one's in there are trying everything to get out. We have gone backwards with Private Prisons as it's in their interest for people to re offend as they make money per head.
Interesting that we have had a one punch killer playing football on the weekend under conditions and the media run around like chooks with their heads cut off. This has been happening for decades and never been an issue. He has to be released back into society at the end of his sentence. This is about rehab and adjustment. He can't have a drink with the boys after a game, it's play the match and then back to prison.
Another one punch killer talking to VCE students about his experience and ramifications and the media run the hysteria campaign again.
You kick someone like a dog everyday in prison and then release them, that dog is going to bite you.
"The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering it's prisons" Fyodor Dostoevsky. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Culprit wrote: | | If you've never been inside a prison you are clueless. It's so good in prison, everyone is trying to avoid going in there and the one's in there are trying everything to get out |
44% of Victorian prisoners return to prison within two years, and ~55% in a longer period. Presumably this includes detection and court time. That is hard to square with your assurance that “everyone is trying to avoid getting in there”. Judging from the excellent and bleakly honest C4 series on prison recently, it can be quite a nasty place to be if you are not habituated to it, and it’s more or less an extension of outside if you are.
As for your idea that you have to be a prisoner or prison staff to have an idea on prison policy, well, direct experience always tells you something. It’s often the wrong thing, but it tells you something.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Culprit
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| Tell me how wonderful it is inside. Give me your insights from your time in prison. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Culprit wrote: | | Tell me how wonderful it is inside. Give me your insights from your time in prison. |
I think I have explained why it’s irrelevant, but carry on if it makes you happy.
It’ll all be much better when prison policy is set by prisoners
Lol:
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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Skids
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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| Culprit wrote: | | Tell me how wonderful it is inside. Give me your insights from your time in prison. |
It's very scary!
I've been in a few, not as an inmate, as a plumber fixing stuff.
Bandyup (WA's womens prison) was an eye opener  The inmates are like a pack of bitches on heat! I would have been raped and murdered if left by myself in there! Some of the things they said they were going to do to me sounded like fun, but other stuff made me shake in my steel caps.
Acacia (Medium security mens prison) was pretty mellow in comparison. I went in to a cell to fix the toilet, dude in there was pretty chilled just reading his book. I had to wait for a guard to come and get me in an exercise area, blokes were having a game of basketball. Everyone seemed pretty happy, most of them were related I think.
Greenough Prison (Low security mixed) Did some laundry A/C up grades here. Spoke with and had lunch with inmates here. Very mellow place, one inmate I spoke with was a sheep farmer. Times were tough so he planted a few cannabis plants, like about 3 acres worth! Others were in for traffic offences, burglaries and minor drug charges.
Inmates here were very relaxed, the women and men seemed to enjoy each others company, I witnessed favours exchanged for smokes. Not too bad a place from what I could tell.
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Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Culprit wrote: | The three R's - Retribution Retribution Retribution.
We have a majority of people sucked in by the media seeking retribution. The days of breaking rocks are over, we worked out that never worked and made criminals into super hardened criminals. Many deem prison as a holiday camp and they get that perception from the media. If you've never been inside a prison you are clueless. It's so good in prison, everyone is trying to avoid going in there and the one's in there are trying everything to get out. We have gone backwards with Private Prisons as it's in their interest for people to re offend as they make money per head.
Interesting that we have had a one punch killer playing football on the weekend under conditions and the media run around like chooks with their heads cut off. This has been happening for decades and never been an issue. He has to be released back into society at the end of his sentence. This is about rehab and adjustment. He can't have a drink with the boys after a game, it's play the match and then back to prison.
Another one punch killer talking to VCE students about his experience and ramifications and the media run the hysteria campaign again.
You kick someone like a dog everyday in prison and then release them, that dog is going to bite you.
"The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering it's prisons" Fyodor Dostoevsky. |
Well said, Culprit – particularly that last quote. Still as timely as ever.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Dave The Man 
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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Rehab is a Cop Out.
Lot of these Criminals that should be Spending Years in Jail are Now just Spending time in Rehab.
Being on Drugs and Drunk should mean Harsher Punishments instead of Lighter Punishments
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I am Da Man |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
You've missed the point there Dave, it's not about sending someone to a drug rehab place instead of gaol, it's about when someone gets sent to gaol and what is the outcome we want?
Do we want them to go to gaol and just be punished the whole time, or do we want them to be rehabilitated inside so they can come out not a criminal anymore.
The OP was about a bloke in gaol, allowed out on Saturday to play local footy as part of a rehab program, a reward for good behaviour, and people lost their minds over it because they think he should be locked away for his whole sentence.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Dave The Man
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
You've missed the point there Dave, it's not about sending someone to a drug rehab place instead of gaol, it's about when someone gets sent to gaol and what is the outcome we want?
Do we want them to go to gaol and just be punished the whole time, or do we want them to be rehabilitated inside so they can come out not a criminal anymore.
The OP was about a bloke in gaol, allowed out on Saturday to play local footy as part of a rehab program, a reward for good behaviour, and people lost their minds over it because they think he should be locked away for his whole sentence. |
Not just to be look like the Victim because they Decided to get into Drugs and Alchol.
You Sentenced to Jail you stay in Jail until Time is Up or Get Bail like anyone can get it seems
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I am Da Man |
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What'sinaname
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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Feel sorrier for the guy spending time for culpable driving. That was truely a bad luck and a mistake he's paying for. Not allowing him to play footy is a bit stiff.
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Fighting against the objectification of woman. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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Again, only a fool would not want rehabilitation in prison. But it is clearly not the same thing as continually making jails more pleasant, since we have been making jails more pleasant since Victorian times while recidivism (currently 45% within two years) has risen in that time. You can have any view you like, but facts will demand to be heard in the end.
As for the straw man that “treating people like animals” causes trouble, well, of course. But no one is advocating that as a policy.
There are clearly different types of prisoners, of course. Minor, one-time offenders, or those whose crimes were unintentional (careless driving, etc) should have conditions which are less intensive. Those with repeat offences or violence need character reformation and sequestration from the public.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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