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Skids Cancer

Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.


Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:59 pm
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Pies4shaw wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
^
There are factions within the SA Parliament calling for white farmers to be dispossessed of their land without compensation.

What would be wrong with that? Wouldn't that just be a kind of retrospective border control?


If you knew the history, you would know that the Zulu were actually invaders from more Northern parts of Africa and not, as many would try and have us believe, the traditional owners of the land....
The white settlers (centuries before the Zulu invasion), purchased and made trades for the land to farm with the local tribes.

Estimates for the death toll resulting from the Mfecane range from 1-2 million.

Zulu militarism and expansionism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_South_Africa

This map (see link) illustrates the rise of the Zulu Empire under Shaka (1816–1828) in present-day South Africa. The rise of the Zulu Empire under Shaka forced other chiefdoms and clans to flee across a wide area of southern Africa. Clans fleeing the Zulu war zone included the Soshangane, Zwangendaba, Ndebele, Hlubi, Ngwane, and the Mfengu. A number of clans were caught between the Zulu Empire and advancing Voortrekkers and British Empire such as the Xhosa .
The Zulu people are part of the Nguni tribe and were originally a minor clan in what is today northern KwaZulu-Natal, founded ca. 1709 by Zulu kaNombela.

The 1820s saw a time of immense upheaval relating to the military expansion of the Zulu Kingdom, which replaced the original African clan system with kingdoms. Sotho-speakers know this period as the difaqane ("forced migration"); Zulu-speakers call it the mfecane ("crushing").

Various theories have been advanced for the causes of the difaqane, ranging from ecological factors to competition in the ivory trade.[31] Another theory attributes the epicentre of Zulu violence to the slave trade out of Delgoa Bay in Mozambique situated to the north of Zululand. According to this theory, Portuguese slavers had been driven southwards because of increased naval activity during the Napoleonic wars; it was the rush of refugees away from the encroaching slavers that precipitated violent instability in the region.[32]

In 1818, Nguni tribes in Zululand became a militaristic kingdom under the driving force of Shaka kaSenzangakhona, son of the chief of the Zulu clan.Shaka built large armies, breaking from clan tradition by placing the armies under the control of his own officers rather than of hereditary chiefs. He then set out on a massive programme of expansion, killing or enslaving those who resisted in the territories he conquered. His impis (warrior regiments) were rigorously disciplined: failure in battle meant death.


Shaka Zulu in traditional Zulu military garb
Peoples in the path of Shaka's armies moved out of his way, becoming in their turn aggressors against their neighbours.[citation needed] This wave of displacement spread throughout southern Africa and beyond. It also accelerated the formation of several new nation-states, notably those of the Sotho (present-day Lesotho) and of the Swazi (now Swaziland).

In 1828 Shaka was killed by his half-brothers Dingaan and Umhlangana. The weaker and less-skilled Dingaan became king, relaxing military discipline while continuing the despotism. Dingaan also attempted to establish relations with the British traders on the Natal coast, but events had started to unfold that would see the demise of Zulu independence.

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Last edited by Skids on Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:03 pm
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Where did he get it?
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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:32 pm
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You need to do some more reading.

The Zulu tribe was a conquerer, the xhosa from memory were the majority of the populaion, but all we nguni who originally came South in the great Bantu migration well before white settlement.

The real traditional owners were the hottentot and bushmen prior to the Bantu arrival.

But majority rules, and the majority of sth Africa is black of nguni origins

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Skids Cancer

Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.


Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:47 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
You need to do some more reading.

The Zulu tribe was a conquerer, the xhosa from memory were the majority of the populaion, but all we nguni who originally came South in the great Bantu migration well before white settlement.

The real traditional owners were the hottentot and bushmen prior to the Bantu arrival.

But majority rules, and the majority of sth Africa is black of nguni origins


Like the British?

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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:10 pm
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Skids wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
^
There are factions within the SA Parliament calling for white farmers to be dispossessed of their land without compensation.

What would be wrong with that? Wouldn't that just be a kind of retrospective border control?


If you knew the history, you would know that the Zulu were actually invaders from more Northern parts of Africa and not, as many would try and have us believe, the traditional owners of the land....
The white settlers (centuries before the Zulu invasion), purchased and made trades for the land to farm with the local tribes.

Estimates for the death toll resulting from the Mfecane range from 1-2 million.

Zulu militarism and expansionism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_South_Africa

This map (see link) illustrates the rise of the Zulu Empire under Shaka (1816–1828) in present-day South Africa. The rise of the Zulu Empire under Shaka forced other chiefdoms and clans to flee across a wide area of southern Africa. Clans fleeing the Zulu war zone included the Soshangane, Zwangendaba, Ndebele, Hlubi, Ngwane, and the Mfengu. A number of clans were caught between the Zulu Empire and advancing Voortrekkers and British Empire such as the Xhosa .
The Zulu people are part of the Nguni tribe and were originally a minor clan in what is today northern KwaZulu-Natal, founded ca. 1709 by Zulu kaNombela.

The 1820s saw a time of immense upheaval relating to the military expansion of the Zulu Kingdom, which replaced the original African clan system with kingdoms. Sotho-speakers know this period as the difaqane ("forced migration"); Zulu-speakers call it the mfecane ("crushing").

Various theories have been advanced for the causes of the difaqane, ranging from ecological factors to competition in the ivory trade.[31] Another theory attributes the epicentre of Zulu violence to the slave trade out of Delgoa Bay in Mozambique situated to the north of Zululand. According to this theory, Portuguese slavers had been driven southwards because of increased naval activity during the Napoleonic wars; it was the rush of refugees away from the encroaching slavers that precipitated violent instability in the region.[32]

In 1818, Nguni tribes in Zululand became a militaristic kingdom under the driving force of Shaka kaSenzangakhona, son of the chief of the Zulu clan.Shaka built large armies, breaking from clan tradition by placing the armies under the control of his own officers rather than of hereditary chiefs. He then set out on a massive programme of expansion, killing or enslaving those who resisted in the territories he conquered. His impis (warrior regiments) were rigorously disciplined: failure in battle meant death.


Shaka Zulu in traditional Zulu military garb
Peoples in the path of Shaka's armies moved out of his way, becoming in their turn aggressors against their neighbours.[citation needed] This wave of displacement spread throughout southern Africa and beyond. It also accelerated the formation of several new nation-states, notably those of the Sotho (present-day Lesotho) and of the Swazi (now Swaziland).

In 1828 Shaka was killed by his half-brothers Dingaan and Umhlangana. The weaker and less-skilled Dingaan became king, relaxing military discipline while continuing the despotism. Dingaan also attempted to establish relations with the British traders on the Natal coast, but events had started to unfold that would see the demise of Zulu independence.

Remind me again, Skids, where you did your honours degree in history that you could think it might not be laughable to quote Wikipedia as a source? Laughing
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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:27 pm
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Yes an no.

The Zulu were one of a number of local nguni tribes that grew a big set and took over the joint. Bit like European countries fighting wars and expanding their boundaries.

The Dutch were there well before the poms, but the poms were the ones who came in late, took over and bought in rule of law. Eventually.

Anyway, doesn't matter.

The Matabele in Rhodesia were a Zulu offshoot who dominated the more numerous Shona. Cecil Rhodes and his company first treatied with the Matabele, then pushed the boundaries, the Matabele pushed back and after a brief war, Rhodesia was born, eventually to become a country. Once Ian Smiths government surrnedered to the black tribes after a bitter war, the Mashona being dominant in numbers took control of the new parliament and dealt out more grief to the Matabele than the whites.

Who's the original owner of Jerusalem? Of England?

The Russians and French executed their ruling class, who owned the country.

I was looking at the history of Crete the other day. Like a lot of places in that area, it's been conquered more times than a hooker on $2 day, so who was there first is totally lost in history and irrelevant. To the victor goes the spoils.

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Pi Gemini



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:42 pm
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people tend to misunderstand the ethnic makeup of south Africa and its geography.

it looks something like this
https://welections.wordpress.com/guide-to-the-2014-south-african-election/race-ethnicity-and-language-in-south-africa/

the language diversity is a bit more useful

https://adrianfrith.com/images/majority-language.png

The problem I had with the Farmlands documentary is they were walking through the Transvaal area in the north east (Pretoria) talking about the events with the Khoisan people who were the lighter skinned indigenous people in the more sparsely populated southern cape area.

Julius Malema and the EFF are not from the southern Cape area yet they would be happy to take the land and property from the indigenous descendants in the south west who are mostly mixed race and then present it to the world as racial justice.

Even if you take whites out of the equation South Africa as its borders are now is a lot more ethnically diverse than most people think.

Eventually it will be split into probably four separate countries.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:34 am
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Pies4shaw wrote:

Remind me again, Skids, where you did your honours degree in history that you could think it might not be laughable to quote Wikipedia as a source? Laughing


The article quoted is pretty much consistent with the BBC documentary “The Lost Kingdoms of Africa, Episode 2” which screened on BBC Four about a fortnight ago. I don’t think your view of Skids education level removes its essential truth.

The centuries past were full of conquests of one tribe over another, leading up to the world we have today. This is news only to those who wish to make these conquests part of the tussle for power and spoils in the present.

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Last edited by Mugwump on Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:38 am
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You don't say.
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:56 am
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Mugwump wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:

Remind me again, Skids, where you did your honours degree in history that you could think it might not be laughable to quote Wikipedia as a source? Laughing


The article quoted is pretty much consistent with the BBC documentary “The Lost Kingdoms of Africa, Episode 2” which screened on BBC Four about a fortnight ago. I don’t think your view of Skids education level removes its essential truth.

The centuries past were full of conquests of one tribe over another, leading up to the world we have today. This is news only to those who wish to make these conquests part of the tussle for power and spoils in the present.

If Skids wants to start his posts with "If you knew your history" and then insult people's intelligence by citing Wikipedia, the question begs to be asked.
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Wokko Pisces

Come and take it.


Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:48 am
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Pies4shaw wrote:

If Skids wants to start his posts with "If you knew your history" and then insult people's intelligence by citing Wikipedia, the question begs to be asked.


The Wikipedia article is fully sourced down the bottom of the page. While it's not a valid source for academic writing, it is more than adequate to educated an ill informed layman on an internet forum.
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:52 am
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Pies4shaw wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:

Remind me again, Skids, where you did your honours degree in history that you could think it might not be laughable to quote Wikipedia as a source? Laughing


The article quoted is pretty much consistent with the BBC documentary “The Lost Kingdoms of Africa, Episode 2” which screened on BBC Four about a fortnight ago. I don’t think your view of Skids education level removes its essential truth.

The centuries past were full of conquests of one tribe over another, leading up to the world we have today. This is news only to those who wish to make these conquests part of the tussle for power and spoils in the present.

If Skids wants to start his posts with "If you knew your history" and then insult people's intelligence by citing Wikipedia, the question begs to be asked.


Yeah, ok, I didn’t make that connection. It did wind the neck out a bit, that. agreed.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:56 am
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Did it really?
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:30 pm
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Mugwump wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:

Remind me again, Skids, where you did your honours degree in history that you could think it might not be laughable to quote Wikipedia as a source? Laughing


The article quoted is pretty much consistent with the BBC documentary “The Lost Kingdoms of Africa, Episode 2” which screened on BBC Four about a fortnight ago. I don’t think your view of Skids education level removes its essential truth.

The centuries past were full of conquests of one tribe over another, leading up to the world we have today. This is news only to those who wish to make these conquests part of the tussle for power and spoils in the present.

If Skids wants to start his posts with "If you knew your history" and then insult people's intelligence by citing Wikipedia, the question begs to be asked.


Yeah, ok, I didn’t make that connection. It did wind the neck out a bit, that. agreed.

It’s the only reason I commented. People post links to Wikipedia all the time on here for convenience - that isn’t the problem, the problem is pretending that you know things because you read them on the internet that is.
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:31 pm
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Pies4shaw wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
Remind me again, Skids, where you did your honours degree in history ... Laughing

... I don’t think your view of Skids education level removes its essential truth. ...

If Skids wants to start his posts with "If you knew your history" and then insult people's intelligence ...

Yeah, ok, I didn’t make that connection. It did wind the neck out a bit, that. agreed.

It’s the only reason I commented. ...

What I found interesting was the specificity: "your honours degree in history". Why honours, specifically? Is a non-honours history major enough? Masters not necessary? What about an honorary degree in history?
And the italicized "your" made me wonder whether P4S or others here have honours degrees in history. Do they?
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