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JLT Series. Game on! - Pies v. Giants - All comments please.

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MatthewBoydFanClub 



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:25 am
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Pies4shaw wrote:
The 2018 list is nowhere near as good as the 2013 list. I do not understand why so many Collingwood supporters are ok about a 10-15 year window between competitive patches. Good coaches don’t allow that. Malthouse rebuilt twice in 3-year windows, despite starting from a hopeless base. Clarkson is on his third rebuild just now, having taken his team to flags on the first two. Lyon got both his teams to Grand Finals in short time.

Part of Collingwood’s present problem is that people seemed to think that Swan, Ball, Cloke, Shaw, Thomas etc replacements would be easily found. In every case, we’ve replaced those players with guys who are capable, at their best, of having half the impact. Meanwhile, supporters keep pencilling-in “best 22” names and I really don’t know why - we have a best 14 or 15 and then nothing.

Nonsense. It's laughable that posters have already made their minds up about a player like Callum Brown who has played a grand total of five AFL games and has the world ahead of him. Likewise we have about twenty others who are to come on in the next few years. Contrast that to when you say and we signed on a guy who was offered a final year on his contract by WCE and we were silly enough to offer him two. The period you say had so much depth, we had a dozen or so who had peaked and others who weren't up to it, but our depth was illusional because we had players like Pendlebury, Swan, Shaw, Ball, Jolly, Beams, Cloke and Thomas (and you can take out Ball who did an ACL, Thomas who did an ankle and Jolly who suddenly slowed down, while Shaw had discipline issues), who were elite and covered up for our deficiencies elsewhere.
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John LEWIN 



Joined: 19 Aug 2017


PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:53 pm
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To Bucks as Future Coach, not quite sure why you say my post is bullshit. You respond that we lack depth. I agree. I assert that you thereby effectively agree with my comment about the game from another perspective. That is, a more general one about why we sent that team out there on that occasion. My comment was that we had L and P plates everywhere, isn't that an effect of a lack of depth?

My comment was entirely founded on what happened over the 4 quarters in that game nothing else.I note that you don't essentially disagree with me within that context.

I would be interested to know if, for example, you dispute my view on the criticism levelled at Mihocek?

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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:34 pm
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^ JL, I take it you mean WIAN, not BIFC, right?
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RudeBoy 



Joined: 28 Nov 2005


PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:52 pm
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I didn't watch the practice game and have no interest in it. I'll be reserving my judgement on our team until we've played a few actual games.
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Pies4shaw 



Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:03 pm
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BucksIsFutureCoach wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
The 2018 list is nowhere near as good as the 2013 list. I do not understand why so many Collingwood supporters are ok about a 10-15 year window between competitive patches. Good coaches don’t allow that. Malthouse rebuilt twice in 3-year windows, despite starting from a hopeless base. Clarkson is on his third rebuild just now, having taken his team to flags on the first two. Lyon got both his teams to Grand Finals in short time.

Part of Collingwood’s present problem is that people seemed to think that Swan, Ball, Cloke, Shaw, Thomas etc replacements would be easily found. In every case, we’ve replaced those players with guys who are capable, at their best, of having half the impact. Meanwhile, supporters keep pencilling-in “best 22” names and I really don’t know why - we have a best 14 or 15 and then nothing.

Nonsense. It's laughable that posters have already made their minds up about a player like Callum Brown who has played a grand total of five AFL games and has the world ahead of him. Likewise we have about twenty others who are to come on in the next few years. Contrast that to when you say and we signed on a guy who was offered a final year on his contract by WCE and we were silly enough to offer him two. The period you say had so much depth, we had a dozen or so who had peaked and others who weren't up to it, but our depth was illusional because we had players like Pendlebury, Swan, Shaw, Ball, Jolly, Beams, Cloke and Thomas (and you can take out Ball who did an ACL, Thomas who did an ankle and Jolly who suddenly slowed down, while Shaw had discipline issues), who were elite and covered up for our deficiencies elsewhere.

“Nonsense” is an interesting response. What I wrote was self-evidently correct. I have not criticised Browny, said nothing about “depth” (the 2013 list was ordinary, too - just not as ordinary) and I have no idea what your West Coast reference is about, so I don’t know why you think those things are relevant. At the moment, like last year, we can field 14 to 15 solid AFL-standard players. Time moves on and the likes of the 2013 versions of Maxwell, Brown, Shaw, Ball, Thomas, Swan, Cloke, Lumumba, Beams, Krak and Toovey are gone - but not adequately replaced. As I said, a decade between competitive lineups is unacceptable. In 5 years, we will look back and desperately regret the way our side threw away the back halves of the careers of Pendlebury, Swan, Cloke and Reid and almost the entire career of Sidebottom. Those guys would have been a good enough core to build another
Finals contender around. That we didn’t - and obviously still can’t - is a complete tragedy.
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Dave The Man Scorpio



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:53 pm
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RudeBoy wrote:
I didn't watch the practice game and have no interest in it. I'll be reserving my judgement on our team until we've played a few actual games.


We could be in a Worse Spot as we play some Good Sides 1st up

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MatthewBoydFanClub 



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:51 pm
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Pies4shaw wrote:
BucksIsFutureCoach wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
The 2018 list is nowhere near as good as the 2013 list. I do not understand why so many Collingwood supporters are ok about a 10-15 year window between competitive patches. Good coaches don’t allow that. Malthouse rebuilt twice in 3-year windows, despite starting from a hopeless base. Clarkson is on his third rebuild just now, having taken his team to flags on the first two. Lyon got both his teams to Grand Finals in short time.

Part of Collingwood’s present problem is that people seemed to think that Swan, Ball, Cloke, Shaw, Thomas etc replacements would be easily found. In every case, we’ve replaced those players with guys who are capable, at their best, of having half the impact. Meanwhile, supporters keep pencilling-in “best 22” names and I really don’t know why - we have a best 14 or 15 and then nothing.

Nonsense. It's laughable that posters have already made their minds up about a player like Callum Brown who has played a grand total of five AFL games and has the world ahead of him. Likewise we have about twenty others who are to come on in the next few years. Contrast that to when you say and we signed on a guy who was offered a final year on his contract by WCE and we were silly enough to offer him two. The period you say had so much depth, we had a dozen or so who had peaked and others who weren't up to it, but our depth was illusional because we had players like Pendlebury, Swan, Shaw, Ball, Jolly, Beams, Cloke and Thomas (and you can take out Ball who did an ACL, Thomas who did an ankle and Jolly who suddenly slowed down, while Shaw had discipline issues), who were elite and covered up for our deficiencies elsewhere.

“Nonsense” is an interesting response. What I wrote was self-evidently correct. I have not criticised Browny, said nothing about “depth” (the 2013 list was ordinary, too - just not as ordinary) and I have no idea what your West Coast reference is about, so I don’t know why you think those things are relevant. At the moment, like last year, we can field 14 to 15 solid AFL-standard players. Time moves on and the likes of the 2013 versions of Maxwell, Brown, Shaw, Ball, Thomas, Swan, Cloke, Lumumba, Beams, Krak and Toovey are gone - but not adequately replaced. As I said, a decade between competitive lineups is unacceptable. In 5 years, we will look back and desperately regret the way our side threw away the back halves of the careers of Pendlebury, Swan, Cloke and Reid and almost the entire career of Sidebottom. Those guys would have been a good enough core to build another
Finals contender around. That we didn’t - and obviously still can’t - is a complete tragedy.

You said we have a best 14-15 then nothing. So since now you're defending Browny, is he one of the 14-15 or is he nothing? And who are the other thirty odd players on our list who are nothing?
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Pies2016 



Joined: 12 Sep 2014


PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:52 pm
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J L T results -

Bombers belted by 90 points against Tigers
Pies pumped by 60 points against Giants
Cats towelled by the G C S to the tune of 10 goals.

That’s it then, there’s your bottom three finishers this season.

Wonder how much skill the bombers and Cats showed after neither could score more than 40 points each for the entire game.
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What'sinaname 



Joined: 29 May 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:09 pm
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Pies2016 wrote:
J L T results -

Bombers belted by 90 points against Tigers
Pies pumped by 60 points against Giants
Cats towelled by the G C S to the tune of 10 goals.

That’s it then, there’s your bottom three finishers this season.

Wonder how much skill the bombers and Cats showed after neither could score more than 40 points each for the entire game.


Out of these games, Cats probably would be the least worried. Played in Townsville where it was 28 degrees when the game finished at 5pm Shocked
Plus they started their preseason 3 weeks later so they'll be a bit behind in terms of prep.

Essendon would be worried. They would think they could improve on 7th and challenge the Premiers but were resoundingly humiliated. Coach's comments about players being confused about the implementation of new things at least suggests they are trying something new to find a way to compete.

Pies also would be worried. No excuses for being under-prepared and with missing players, I would think the players would be pushing for selection or making a case that they are close to selection. Coach's comments about not being able to do the basics correct is a worry.
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John LEWIN 



Joined: 19 Aug 2017


PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:24 pm
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Apology to BIFC and thanks to K, yes my reply should have been addressed to WIAN.
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Pies4shaw 



Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:34 pm
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BucksIsFutureCoach wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
BucksIsFutureCoach wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
The 2018 list is nowhere near as good as the 2013 list. I do not understand why so many Collingwood supporters are ok about a 10-15 year window between competitive patches. Good coaches don’t allow that. Malthouse rebuilt twice in 3-year windows, despite starting from a hopeless base. Clarkson is on his third rebuild just now, having taken his team to flags on the first two. Lyon got both his teams to Grand Finals in short time.

Part of Collingwood’s present problem is that people seemed to think that Swan, Ball, Cloke, Shaw, Thomas etc replacements would be easily found. In every case, we’ve replaced those players with guys who are capable, at their best, of having half the impact. Meanwhile, supporters keep pencilling-in “best 22” names and I really don’t know why - we have a best 14 or 15 and then nothing.

Nonsense. It's laughable that posters have already made their minds up about a player like Callum Brown who has played a grand total of five AFL games and has the world ahead of him. Likewise we have about twenty others who are to come on in the next few years. Contrast that to when you say and we signed on a guy who was offered a final year on his contract by WCE and we were silly enough to offer him two. The period you say had so much depth, we had a dozen or so who had peaked and others who weren't up to it, but our depth was illusional because we had players like Pendlebury, Swan, Shaw, Ball, Jolly, Beams, Cloke and Thomas (and you can take out Ball who did an ACL, Thomas who did an ankle and Jolly who suddenly slowed down, while Shaw had discipline issues), who were elite and covered up for our deficiencies elsewhere.

“Nonsense” is an interesting response. What I wrote was self-evidently correct. I have not criticised Browny, said nothing about “depth” (the 2013 list was ordinary, too - just not as ordinary) and I have no idea what your West Coast reference is about, so I don’t know why you think those things are relevant. At the moment, like last year, we can field 14 to 15 solid AFL-standard players. Time moves on and the likes of the 2013 versions of Maxwell, Brown, Shaw, Ball, Thomas, Swan, Cloke, Lumumba, Beams, Krak and Toovey are gone - but not adequately replaced. As I said, a decade between competitive lineups is unacceptable. In 5 years, we will look back and desperately regret the way our side threw away the back halves of the careers of Pendlebury, Swan, Cloke and Reid and almost the entire career of Sidebottom. Those guys would have been a good enough core to build another
Finals contender around. That we didn’t - and obviously still can’t - is a complete tragedy.

You said we have a best 14-15 then nothing. So since now you're defending Browny, is he one of the 14-15 or is he nothing? And who are the other thirty odd players on our list who are nothing?

He's not yet AFL standard. He might be one day - but he isn't yet. Until then, he's not plugging one of the 7 or 8 holes in our team every week in any useful way.

I think you're misunderstanding my point - Daicos might be the next, well, Daicos - but at the moment, he's just a guy who struggles to touch the ball against senior opposition. It doesn't mean I don't rate him or don't want him on the list - I just don't want him in the senior team (yet) because he isn't a competitive senior player (yet).

After the following guys, it's a genuine raffle:

Backs: Reid, Langdon, Howe, Crisp
Mids: Grundy, Pendles, Sidey, Treloar, De Goey, Wells, Adams, Varcoe, WHE
Forwards: Elliott, Moore, Fasolo

That leaves out Goldie, who is a personal favourite - but I'm not picking personal favourites. I'm looking for a team that is good enough to win consistently. Goldie can play at 21 or 22 in such a team - he can't be a core player.

Of those 16 I've listed , though, there are 4 who cry out for urgent replacement - Reid, Wells, Varcoe and Pendles - all 4 are much, much closer to the end than the beginning. The other 12 are all young and fit enough to wait for the Club to find the other 10 players who are up to scratch - but not those 4: for them, it's now or almost never.

I have high hopes for the Browns, Daicos, Stephenson, Murphy, McLarty, Crocker and Wills. I have little interest in Greenwood, Scharenberg (he's a fine footballer but still looks hopelessly slow to me), Cox, Broomhead, Blair, Thomas, Mayne, or Dunn. I don't know what to think about Smith, Murray, Aish, Phillips, Kirby or Maynard.

Obviously, some of the "high hopes", "little interests" and "don't knows" (or even the rookies) must play (since there's 6 spots available in the team, even if the 16 I've listed are all fit) but I don't see how we beat good quality opposition consistently with so many presently sub-par players. I go the VFL (a lot) to enjoy the kids developing and say "Gee, [so and so] is going to be a beauty". I watch the seniors to see them win. Going to watch the seniors and saying "Gee, [so and so] is going to be a beauty" feels a bit like Fitzroy, circa 1973.
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think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:23 pm
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Pies4shaw wrote:
BucksIsFutureCoach wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
BucksIsFutureCoach wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
The 2018 list is nowhere near as good as the 2013 list. I do not understand why so many Collingwood supporters are ok about a 10-15 year window between competitive patches. Good coaches don’t allow that. Malthouse rebuilt twice in 3-year windows, despite starting from a hopeless base. Clarkson is on his third rebuild just now, having taken his team to flags on the first two. Lyon got both his teams to Grand Finals in short time.

Part of Collingwood’s present problem is that people seemed to think that Swan, Ball, Cloke, Shaw, Thomas etc replacements would be easily found. In every case, we’ve replaced those players with guys who are capable, at their best, of having half the impact. Meanwhile, supporters keep pencilling-in “best 22” names and I really don’t know why - we have a best 14 or 15 and then nothing.

Nonsense. It's laughable that posters have already made their minds up about a player like Callum Brown who has played a grand total of five AFL games and has the world ahead of him. Likewise we have about twenty others who are to come on in the next few years. Contrast that to when you say and we signed on a guy who was offered a final year on his contract by WCE and we were silly enough to offer him two. The period you say had so much depth, we had a dozen or so who had peaked and others who weren't up to it, but our depth was illusional because we had players like Pendlebury, Swan, Shaw, Ball, Jolly, Beams, Cloke and Thomas (and you can take out Ball who did an ACL, Thomas who did an ankle and Jolly who suddenly slowed down, while Shaw had discipline issues), who were elite and covered up for our deficiencies elsewhere.

“Nonsense” is an interesting response. What I wrote was self-evidently correct. I have not criticised Browny, said nothing about “depth” (the 2013 list was ordinary, too - just not as ordinary) and I have no idea what your West Coast reference is about, so I don’t know why you think those things are relevant. At the moment, like last year, we can field 14 to 15 solid AFL-standard players. Time moves on and the likes of the 2013 versions of Maxwell, Brown, Shaw, Ball, Thomas, Swan, Cloke, Lumumba, Beams, Krak and Toovey are gone - but not adequately replaced. As I said, a decade between competitive lineups is unacceptable. In 5 years, we will look back and desperately regret the way our side threw away the back halves of the careers of Pendlebury, Swan, Cloke and Reid and almost the entire career of Sidebottom. Those guys would have been a good enough core to build another
Finals contender around. That we didn’t - and obviously still can’t - is a complete tragedy.

You said we have a best 14-15 then nothing. So since now you're defending Browny, is he one of the 14-15 or is he nothing? And who are the other thirty odd players on our list who are nothing?

He's not yet AFL standard. He might be one day - but he isn't yet. Until then, he's not plugging one of the 7 or 8 holes in our team every week in any useful way.

I think you're misunderstanding my point - Daicos might be the next, well, Daicos - but at the moment, he's just a guy who struggles to touch the ball against senior opposition. It doesn't mean I don't rate him or don't want him on the list - I just don't want him in the senior team (yet) because he isn't a competitive senior player (yet).

After the following guys, it's a genuine raffle:

Backs: Reid, Langdon, Howe, Crisp
Mids: Grundy, Pendles, Sidey, Treloar, De Goey, Wells, Adams, Varcoe, WHE
Forwards: Elliott, Moore, Fasolo

That leaves out Goldie, who is a personal favourite - but I'm not picking personal favourites. I'm looking for a team that is good enough to win consistently. Goldie can play at 21 or 22 in such a team - he can't be a core player.

Of those 16 I've listed , though, there are 4 who cry out for urgent replacement - Reid, Wells, Varcoe and Pendles - all 4 are much, much closer to the end than the beginning. The other 12 are all young and fit enough to wait for the Club to find the other 10 players who are up to scratch - but not those 4: for them, it's now or almost never.

I have high hopes for the Browns, Daicos, Stephenson, Murphy, McLarty, Crocker and Wills. I have little interest in Greenwood, Scharenberg (he's a fine footballer but still looks hopelessly slow to me), Cox, Broomhead, Blair, Thomas, Mayne, or Dunn. I don't know what to think about Smith, Murray, Aish, Phillips, Kirby or Maynard.

Obviously, some of the "high hopes", "little interests" and "don't knows" (or even the rookies) must play (since there's 6 spots available in the team, even if the 16 I've listed are all fit) but I don't see how we beat good quality opposition consistently with so many presently sub-par players. I go the VFL (a lot) to enjoy the kids developing and say "Gee, [so and so] is going to be a beauty". I watch the seniors to see them win. Going to watch the seniors and saying "Gee, [so and so] is going to be a beauty" feels a bit like Fitzroy, circa 1973.


Unfortunately I share your doom and gloom. And surely if we get 8 games in and we ain’t in the 8 (Hahahaha hmmmm) it should be curtains.... how $£$%^%%$ depressing this is.

But hey at least $£$%^%%$ geeeeeelong lost!

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Woods 

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Joined: 21 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:51 pm
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What'sinaname wrote:
Pies2016 wrote:
J L T results -

Bombers belted by 90 points against Tigers
Pies pumped by 60 points against Giants
Cats towelled by the G C S to the tune of 10 goals.

That’s it then, there’s your bottom three finishers this season.

Wonder how much skill the bombers and Cats showed after neither could score more than 40 points each for the entire game.


Out of these games, Cats probably would be the least worried. Played in Townsville where it was 28 degrees when the game finished at 5pm Shocked
Plus they started their preseason 3 weeks later so they'll be a bit behind in terms of prep.

Essendon would be worried. They would think they could improve on 7th and challenge the Premiers but were resoundingly humiliated. Coach's comments about players being confused about the implementation of new things at least suggests they are trying something new to find a way to compete.

Pies also would be worried. No excuses for being under-prepared and with missing players, I would think the players would be pushing for selection or making a case that they are close to selection. Coach's comments about not being able to do the basics correct is a worry.


Anyone who is putting their head on the block by extrapolating the JT game as a determinant of Collingwood's success in the forthcoming home & away rounds is just friggin nuts.

The only form to take into consideration is last years form, particularly the latter half of the season.

If you want numbers to back it up, go read this: https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/the-equation-that-proves-afl-preseason-form-doesnt-really-matter/news-story/1a02f4bf8bf97dbb57ed3ca30b6b5f47

But it should be self apparent to anybody with half a football brain.

One JLT game does not a season make.
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:55 pm
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^ I think if you look at any side (except GWS, the Frankenstein team on draft steroids) there’ll be some good ordinary players who just make the standard. 1990 - a truly outstanding side which pissed a back to back chance up against a wall - had Kerrison and Gayfer and Turner and arguably Starcevich, all ok players but not the type to put fear into the opposition week after week.

I think Aish and Scharenberg should make a big step forward this year, and it’s likely that Cox will continue to improve and pose big problems. If true, that’s a core of around 20 very good footballers. So I remain optimistic that we have a strong core and the year ahead will bring good things. It’d help if we had one good, mobile power forward, but that’ll have to wait until Lynch is available. In any event, we’ll see, soon enough.

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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:05 pm
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Woods wrote:
...
If you want numbers to back it up, go read this: https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/the-equation-that-proves-afl-preseason-form-doesnt-really-matter/news-story/1a02f4bf8bf97dbb57ed3ca30b6b5f47
...

The accuracy of that article is way worse than our kicking. Something to cheer about?
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