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OEP 
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Location: Perth
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| David wrote: | | Not sure an allegation of rubbing someone’s back (!?) quite meets the criteria of this thread... |
Depends on the intent of the person doing it, how it made the recipient feel and the circumstances surrounding the touching.
To make my point imagine rubbing someones shoulders, you can do it in a therapeutic way, a friendly way or a sexual way. No different to the someones back. Is it as overt as rubbing a females breasts, buttocks or genitals, no it isn't but it can have the same overtones.
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A Collingwood supporter since the egg was inseminated. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| OEP wrote: | | David wrote: | | Not sure an allegation of rubbing someone’s back (!?) quite meets the criteria of this thread... |
Depends on the intent of the person doing it, how it made the recipient feel and the circumstances surrounding the touching.
... |
Exactly what happened (if anything --- I wonder whether Milne claims nothing at all happened, or that whatever happened was "appropriate"), which the public does not know, matters a lot. Sexual harassment, for example, is not okay just because it seems "not as bad" as sexual assault.
As for "criteria of this thread", clearly there are none, since it, like so many (most?) threads, is always at risk of predictable political pronouncements (for example) polluting it. |
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npalm
Joined: 01 May 2005
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For the record, Guthrie did not say that Milne rubbed her back.
The reporter put it to Guthrie that it had been suggested (by person\s unidentified) that she was complaining about her back being rubbed. Guthrie denied this. She said it was some other form of touching, worse than a back rub. She refused to specify what form the touching took.
Milne denied rubbing her back or otherwise touching her inappropriately.
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Side by side. |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | | Not sure an allegation of rubbing someone’s back (!?) quite meets the criteria of this thread... |
your so sensitive on other issues... unwanted contact is unwanted contact
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I didn't say it's okay (there are plenty of behaviours that are okay in everyday life that might not be acceptable in a professional environment); I was just questioning whether it really belonged in a thread about sexual assault and harassment. Perhaps I spoke too soon, if the facts are as described above.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| But would you generally think rubbing a professional colleague's back (the original assumption of your post) could be sexual harassment? |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Umm... maybe harassment, but not necessarily sexual harassment? Where exactly is the line drawn between a touch and a sexual touch?
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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Maybe that is the line, i.e. the line is where "touch" turns to "rub".
(Is this like the AFL hands-in-the-back vs. push-in-the-back debate?) |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | Umm... maybe harassment, but not necessarily sexual harassment? Where exactly is the line drawn between a touch and a sexual touch? |
Unwanted attention of a sexual nature. The sexual nature component being in the eye of the beholder and subject to a reasonable person test.
I worked for 10 years in a closed environment with 50 women. I had simple rules for myself.
1. Keep hands to yourself at all times
2. Do not comment on appearance, positive or negative just notice nothing and comment on nothing
3. No socialising unless required by work.
One of my direct reports had an issue with physical contact. I didn't know because I'd never touched her until my boss jokingly promised to give her a massage one time as a potential reward. I saw her facial reaction.
Everyone is different and open communication is key. If someone does something you don't like, just tell them. Discuss it and move forward like adults without needing to get formal or into complaints. If the do it again, then go hard.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| swoop42 wrote: | | Skids wrote: | Geez, if you went back to the 80's when I was doing my apprenticeship, EVERY tradesman was guilty of some sort of harrasment(going by todays sooks).
Or perhaps it was blatant harassment then as it is now and women are only now finally calling men out on behaviour that has always made them feel very uncomfortable.
We just grew up and dealt with it.
As men we haven't had to deal with anything other than a damaged ego when advances weren't reciprocated. Women on the other hand have to worry and sometimes deal with unwanted or threatening behaviour whether it be physical or verbal when dealing with a mans bruised ego or his simple belief he can get away with it because it's a personality trait of his.
The old style of picking up a chick would probably be seen as some form of sexual harrasment by the precious feminists and snowflakes of today.
I think most people in social situations enter any engagement in good faith and inappropriate behaviour is generally obvious to most in reality. Of course their are always the odd exception to this.
Sure, nobody should be subjected to REAL harrasment of any sort but todays limits are a bit soft IMO. |
More likely it's just the righting of the power balance between men and women we are now seeing and we as men have to accept and realise that behaviour we thought was okay until now actually wasn't and the non objection from women in the past was done more out of fear of reprisal, intimidation or strangely not wanting to embarrass the man in the moment.
Of course their will always be incidents that very much appear in the grey to those of us not witness to it like the one surrounding Aziz Ansari whereby two individuals can read a situation totally different and come to a conclusion at the opposite ends of a spectrum.
This can occur between any two individuals of course as well all have different life experiences and personalities that influence our perceptions and it's certainly not just a male and female thing on how we see the world.
These types of grey incidents or a minority where a person might have an agenda or be mentally suspect is where the problems will arise. |
Someone mentioned the op, so I went back for a look at the first page.
As an apprentice I copped plenty, they had me in tears more than once, they had one guy in the same year as me, Sumath, tall skinny quietly spoken black guy, in tears weekly. Not just racial. We got bruises. The guys all got their dicks measured on the infamous cock block. And the stories from the old timers scared the crap out of me.
It’s not just women finally calling out perpetrators for their behaviour.
David casually mentioned Geoffrey Rush and him suing a newspaper, 15 pages later, and Rush is in court.
I’ll get out my crystal ball, the next me too members will be the men if Hollywood, straight and gay, the barriers are coming down, no where to hide.
As Stui said so well, keep your hands off, keep your conversation professional, it’s that simple.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | | Umm... maybe harassment, but not necessarily sexual harassment? Where exactly is the line drawn between a touch and a sexual touch? |
Not too many people are so sensitive they call out a one of touch of a hand to a shoulder, what has gone on previously, innuendo, harassment disguised as jokes?
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ That's what I was wondering. Does the level of acceptable touch reduce the further you rise up the ranks professionally? (I mean, if a pat or rub on the back constitutes sexual harassment, then it's quite conceivable that I've been a victim of harassment at every job I've ever worked.)
Is Guthrie bringing up a trivial single incident in order to bolster her case against Milne? Or is this a serious case of workplace harassment, and the 'hand on the back' thing is a distraction from what actually happened? I suppose we shall see...
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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I see ''Baa baa black sheep" is now "Baa baa sheep sheep".
It's just a matter of time before the name of a MANdarine is changed, surely?
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Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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| Quote: | | Is Guthrie bringing up a trivial single incident in order to bolster her case against Milne? Or is this a serious case of workplace harassment... |
Probably guarantees a book deal. |
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