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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Wokko wrote: | | K wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | Believe all women...
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No one ever said one should "believe all women", any more than one should "believe all sexual predators' denials". |
Many people said "Believe All Women" it was the rallying cry of the feminist movement during the whole #MeToo thing. We were told that nobody would ever make up stories of sexual assault for personal gain, revenge, political motives. And yet here we are. |
What I find strange is that many of these articles (like the one I just posted) will acknowledge the existence of false sexual assault allegations but then say that they are rare, pointing to statistics of 2 to 8% of allegations being false. But 2 to 8% is hardly rare – even if we take the lower figure there, that means that actually many thousands of allegations (albeit still a small minority) are made up. No, it’s not anywhere near as big a social problem as sexual assault itself is, and no, it’s not an excuse to presume plaintiffs are lying.
But rather than allowing us to dismiss the existence of false allegations as a practically negligible occurrence and a trivial concern, what those statistics should remind us that there is always some room for doubt – and that that is why we need the crime to be proven before rushing to condemn.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Some may more context httpswww dotvoxdot comfirst-person201891817874504kavanaugh-assault-allegation-christine-blasey-ford, but not all. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| David wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | K wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | Believe all women...
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No one ever said one should "believe all women", any more than one should "believe all sexual predators' denials". |
Many people said "Believe All Women" it was the rallying cry of the feminist movement during the whole #MeToo thing. We were told that nobody would ever make up stories of sexual assault for personal gain, revenge, political motives. And yet here we are. |
What I find strange is that many of these articles (like the one I just posted) will acknowledge the existence of false sexual assault allegations but then say that they are rare, pointing to statistics of 2 to 8% of allegations being false. But 2 to 8% is hardly rare – even if we take the lower figure there, that means that actually many thousands of allegations (albeit a small minority) are made up. Rather than allowing us to dismiss the existence of false allegations as a practically negligible occurrence and a trivial concern, what those statistics should remind us that there is always some room for doubt – and that that is why we need the crime to be proven before rushing to condemn. |
So, in summary, that analysis suggests that if someone accuses a person of rape, there is less than one chance in eight that the accusation is false. |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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That's allegations being proven false, not false allegations made that don't go anywhere or false allegations that lead to a conviction and are never overturned. The number would be much, much higher.
Even if the number is 'only' 2%, that is a huge number of people having their life ruined, losing their jobs, their families and often committing suicide or going to jail and losing years of their lives before being exonerated.
Like any other crime there should be an ironclad presumption of innocence, the need for the case to be proven beyond reasonable doubt before we condemn these (usually) men to a life sentence. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| All criminal cases have to be proved beyond reasonable doubt. |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | All criminal cases have to be proved beyond reasonable doubt. |
Do you think lives aren't ruined despite not guilty verdicts? I'm saying that mob punishment for these crimes need to stop. Who cares if you're found not guilty these days when you've already lost your job, family and savings trying to defend yourself.
We shouldn't "believe" anyone, we should demand allegations are proven. |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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I'm not sure I'm following this twist.
Women are human beings, no more noble and infallible than men. As such, some will lie about things.
If for arguments sake, 8% of claims of rape are actually lies made for an ulterior motive, why would that surprise anyone?
On the other hand, the number of rapes that go un-reported for a variety of reasons, would far outnumber the number of false reports.
If anything, the lesson should be that people should not be so quick to make judgements about things when they don't have access to facts. Vilifying an accused person or an accusor before a matter has been tried is just malicious gossip.
Accusing people of impropriety over social media, without intent to actually lodge criminal action, can have harsh consequences for the accused and should be actionable.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | David wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | K wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | Believe all women...
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No one ever said one should "believe all women", any more than one should "believe all sexual predators' denials". |
Many people said "Believe All Women" it was the rallying cry of the feminist movement during the whole #MeToo thing. We were told that nobody would ever make up stories of sexual assault for personal gain, revenge, political motives. And yet here we are. |
What I find strange is that many of these articles (like the one I just posted) will acknowledge the existence of false sexual assault allegations but then say that they are rare, pointing to statistics of 2 to 8% of allegations being false. But 2 to 8% is hardly rare – even if we take the lower figure there, that means that actually many thousands of allegations (albeit a small minority) are made up. Rather than allowing us to dismiss the existence of false allegations as a practically negligible occurrence and a trivial concern, what those statistics should remind us that there is always some room for doubt – and that that is why we need the crime to be proven before rushing to condemn. |
So, in summary, that analysis suggests that if someone accuses a person of rape, there is less than one chance in eight that the accusation is false. |
I’d guess closer to one in fifty – it looks as if it’s firmly in the category of uncommon but far from negligible.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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I see: "Solicitor for the Respondents: Ashurst Australia".
So far, it's not easy to think of a reason for anyone defending defamation litigation to seek the services of Ashurst...
On the other hand: "Solicitor for the Applicant: HWL Ebsworth Lawyers".
Perhaps a caveat for readers of previous (and future) posts here that quoted from ... HWL Ebsworth.
Last edited by K on Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| K wrote: | | All this Kavanaugh discussion should probably have its own thread, because the issues go beyond this thread's. Ignore the topic of this thread and one is still left with the reality that he is simply unfit for his job. |
On what grounds is he unfit? Have you reviewed his rulings and found them to contain errors of US law? |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| K wrote: | | David wrote: | | While he started the defamation case in a pretty strong position (and if I recall correctly the truth may not even be a sufficient defence for the Telegraph here; they have to prove that their reportage was reasonable given the facts that they then had access to), I have a feeling Rush isn’t going to win this one. .... |
I'd be rather surprised if that were the case. ....
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Having looked a bit at some of the details of the case, I think what David was referring to is the fact that the Telegraph legal team tried not just the defence of justification, but also qualified privilege, in section 30 of the Defamation Act 2005 (NSW). [It must be said that one excellent defence is better than two or three or five very dubious defences.]
"Qualified privilege provides a defence to a claim in defamation, where a publisher can show the recipient of the publication, in this instance the readers of the Articles, have an interest in receiving the information, the matter was published to give the recipient the information on that subject and the publisher acted reasonably in publishing the matter." *
This is along the lines of what is commonly said to be in the public's interest, but "the fact that a matter was one of public interest does not of itself attract qualified privilege".**
* https://hwlebsworth.com.au/geoffrey-rush-v-nationwide-news-pty-ltd-jonathon-moran/
** https://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/10-defences-and-exemptions/qualified-privilege
Last edited by K on Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:21 am; edited 2 times in total |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Another one
| Quote: | NSW Opposition Leader Luke Foley has resigned as Labor leader but says the harassment allegations levelled against him by an ABC journalist are false.
Reading from a prepared statement late afternoon on Thursday, Mr Foley said he had already engaged lawyers and would now begin defamation proceedings in the Federal Court. |
A Labor pollie this time. Wonder if his presumption of guilt or innocence will play on party lines here?
https://www.theage.com.au/national/nsw/luke-foley-resigns-as-nsw-labor-leader-following-explosive-allegations-20181108-p50euz.html
Interestingly I read about this earlier today, before he resigned.
The alleged incident occurred 2 years ago and the alleged victim, a political reporter, took no action at the time according to her for fear of jeopardising her job. It seems word got around and it was raised in parliament under parliamentary privilege. The increasing comment and speculation is what apparently lead the alleged victim to make this statement.
| Quote: | Here is Ashleigh Raper’s full statement:
This is a position I never wanted to be in and a statement I never intended to make.
But I think the time has come for my voice to be heard, for the following reasons:
The escalation of the public debate, including in state and federal parliament, despite my expressed wish to neither comment nor complain, and the likelihood of ongoing media and political interest.
Two recent phone conversations with the Leader of the New South Wales Opposition Luke Foley.
To set the record straight.
In November 2016 I attended an official Christmas function at New South Wales Parliament House for state political reporters, politicians and their staff.
This is what happened on that night.
The party moved from Parliament House to Martin Place Bar after a number of hours.
Later in the evening, Luke Foley approached a group of people, including me, to say goodnight.
He stood next to me.
He put his hand through a gap in the back of my dress and inside my underpants.
He rested his hand on my buttocks.
I completely froze.
This was witnessed by Sean Nicholls, who was then the state political editor at the Sydney Morning Herald and is now an ABC journalist.
Mr Foley then left the bar.
Sean and I discussed what happened.
As shaken as I was, I decided not to take any action and asked Sean to keep the events in the strictest confidence.
He has honoured that.
I chose not to make a complaint for a number of reasons.
It is clear to me that a woman who is the subject of such behaviour is often the person who suffers once a complaint is made.
I cherished my position as a state political reporter and feared that would be lost.
I also feared the negative impact the publicity could have on me personally and on my young family.
This impact is now being felt profoundly.
When a reporter contacted me earlier this year after hearing about the incident, I informed ABC news management about Mr Foley’s actions.
I told them I didn’t wish to make a complaint or for any further action to be taken.
They respected my request for privacy and have offered me nothing but their absolute care and support.
David Elliot raised the matter in the New South Wales Parliament last month, putting the incident in the public domain.
The matter then became a state and federal political issue and resulted in intense media attention.
This occurred without my involvement or consent.
Last Sunday (4 November) Luke Foley called me on my mobile phone and we had a conversation that lasted 19 minutes.
He said he was sorry and that he was full of remorse for his behaviour towards me at the Press Gallery Christmas function in November 2016.
He told me that he had wanted to talk to me about that night on many occasions over the past two years because, while he was drunk and couldn’t remember all the details of the night, he knew he did something to offend me.
He apologised again and told me, “I’m not a philanderer, I’m not a groper, I’m just a drunk idiot”.
He said he would be resigning as the leader of the New South Wales Labor Party on either the next day (Monday, 5 November) or Wednesday (7 November).
He said he couldn’t resign on the Tuesday because it was Melbourne Cup Day and he didn’t want to be accused of burying the story.
On Tuesday (6 November) Mr Foley called me again.
He repeated his apology and told me he owed me “a lot of contrition”.
He informed me he’d received legal advice not to resign as Opposition Leader.
He indicated he intended to follow that advice.
There are three things I want to come from my decision to make this statement.
First, women should be able to go about their professional lives and socialise without being subject to this sort of behaviour.
And I want it to stop.
Second, situations like mine should not be discussed in parliament for the sake of political point scoring.
And I want it to stop.
Third, I want to get on with my life.
I do not wish to make any further comment.
Read more at https://www.businessinsider.com.au/nsw-labor-leader-luke-foley-abc-journalist-assault-2018-11#fsXligggzz7WXAbc.99 |
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I hope you get it to stop. |
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