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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| K wrote: | | But if two stopped clocks agree, would that not be spooky? |
If they agreed one time, I think itd be spookier if they ever didnt. 
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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I get where that is coming from, but I think its a well-intentioned kind of suppression and censorship.
The point of current reporting on the Sudanese issue is that we have already established that there is a real problem with youth from that group. At that point, each new incident becomes newsworthy, because it shows the nature of a problem. Its not even newsworthy when a person of Indian ethnicity commits a serious crime because we know that there is no issue with integration of that group - though a riot dominated by Indian people would be probably be reported as such.
The periodic polite discussion of racial representation in serious crime will do little to alert the public to a pressing public issue. If it is done in headlines, of course, Itll also be decried as irresponsible. You cannot report the general without also reporting the particular in terms that reflect upon the general.
Responsibility in this matter means accepting that many of those who are here and have rights to remain need more help to integrate, and spending resources and time to do so. It does not mean suppressing public information about individual crimes because of sensitivity to skin colour. Its not comfortable, and there is a risk of stigma against innocent and law-abiding people. But I would prefer to find positive ways to counter stigma than to suppress significant truth from the public.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Mugwump wrote: | | The point of current reporting on the Sudanese issue is that we have already established that there is a real problem with youth from that group. At that point, each new incident becomes newsworthy, because it shows the nature of a problem. Its not even newsworthy when a person of Indian ethnicity commits a serious crime because we know that there is no issue with integration of that group |
This sounds like a perfect recipe for confirmation bias. The problem with your logic here is that, even if the rate of Sudanese crimes indicates a specific problem endemic to the Sudanese community, that obviously doesnt mean that crimes committed by individual Sudanese people are necessarily part of that phenomenon. As such, reporting every single crime by someone of Sudanese background as part of that narrative just leaves you with something akin to Skids terrorism tracker i.e. a highly xenophobic exercise that tells lies of omission. Its hard to think of a more irresponsible approach to these issues.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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its only confirmation bias if you fail to report when its getting better.
Ill go back to my intersection analogy. Its been demonstrated that a lot of accidents occur at a particular intersection. Is it then wrong to report when an individual accident occurs at that intersection if you do not report all accidents at all intersections ?
Fine, we are talking about people and social life, and intersections do not have feelings or get targeted by nutjobs, so there is a need to report carefully and factually. But it doesnt mean that you should suppress information relevant to a particular problem. The route out of this problem is to reduce the rate of Sudanese youth crime, not to subtly suppress reportage. Suppressing reportage is irresponsible to those who get the riots on their street or the home invasion. They seem to get less consideration, however.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| There is a black person at the bus stop outside my front door shouting into his mobile phone. Intervention required? |
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Piethagoras' Theorem 
the hypotenuse, is always a cakewalk
Joined: 29 May 2006
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Only if he's shouting to a white person on the other end.
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Formally frankiboy and FrankieGoesToCollingwood. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| FrankieGoesToCollingwood wrote: | | Only if he's shouting to a white person on the other end. |
I cant tell - but theres obviously some risk that he may have called a WhiteAustralian. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | The point of current reporting on the Sudanese issue is that we have already established that there is a real problem with youth from that group. At that point, each new incident becomes newsworthy, because it shows the nature of a problem. Its not even newsworthy when a person of Indian ethnicity commits a serious crime because we know that there is no issue with integration of that group |
This sounds like a perfect recipe for confirmation bias. The problem with your logic here is that, even if the rate of Sudanese crimes indicates a specific problem endemic to the Sudanese community, that obviously doesnt mean that crimes committed by individual Sudanese people are necessarily part of that phenomenon. As such, reporting every single crime by someone of Sudanese background as part of that narrative just leaves you with something akin to Skids terrorism tracker i.e. a highly xenophobic exercise that tells lies of omission. Its hard to think of a more irresponsible approach to these issues. |
Its more than confirmation bias - its a means of identifying them as Other. Despite Stuis protestations (and Mugwumps incontestably silly reference to Canadians), the process of identifying them by reference to some ethnic trait is really a way of saying that they arent us. Referring to them by an alleged nationality is even more problematic because the media does not know what country theyre actually from. There are always problems with immigrants. The locals werent too thrilled by the first influx of Brits. But in the last century, weve seen discrimination on ethnic-religious grounds between the English, the Irish and the Scots played out here and certainly in my lifetime there has been serial concern and suspicion about immigrant Germans, Jews, Greeks, Italians, Italians from Sicily (a special case), Maltese, Macedonians, Lebanese Christians, South Vietnamese, Cambodians, North Vietnamese, Yugoslavians (before the break up), Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Afghan Christians, Afghan Muslims, Malaysian Chinese, Malaysian Indians, mainland Chinese, Indians, Pakistanis Syrians and Sudanese. Im not suggesting, by the way, that it is ok or appropriate to refer to any of those people by those labels. Im just recounting, off the top of my head, the way that the problematic Other has been identified in the media to my direct knowledge.
We dont now refer to people who are citizens as being of Celtic appearance, or of Italian appearance etc etc - and there is a reason for that. Its specifically because the appearances we do identify are the recent immigrant ones. Serially, forever. It always was petty and stupid and it remains so. |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Interesting. I don't agree but I can see your argument.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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The reference to Canadians was only "incontestably silly" because you either couldn't understand the point or (more likely) found it so obviously a problematic argument for your position that you thought it best to pretend not to.
To make it pellucid for you, when any recent immigrant group is disproportionately represented in crime it will become a public policy matter. Skin colcur doesn't make it a special case beyond the limits of civil discussion.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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If they are being treated as an other, it is because the behaviour of their young men is not remotely statistically normative. Within our society, the
Chinese were other twenty-five years ago. So were the Indians. There was no issue. Australians are clearly very accepting of people of any race as long as they, on average, fit in, work, and do no particular violence.
There is no doubt that the Sudanese have greater visibility because of their skin colour, and that is why the actual statistics are important. It is possible that it might be a shameful racist beat-up, or a mere visibility effect - but the numbers roar that it is not. We know what racism looks like :it is built on lies, on untruths, on selective application of the law and on individual discrimination. It is not racism to discuss why our politicians have a policy which results in a higher violent crime rate, when it is recent migrants from one lawless, troubled country who seem to be bringing that very disproportionately . You may define it as racism to shut down the debate, but that is what a dictatorship would do, not a liberal democracy.
Then I look at the video you attached, and the first tag is racism. So you have to question the motives and independence of the perspective being adopted here. Just as in that video, there are real people on the end of the shop raids, car jackings, beatings, and home invasions, whose lives and psyches may well not be the same again. I know that because a friend of mine is one of them, and he is still struggling to go out. I see no videos exploring their perspective.
At the most basic level, it is unjust to prioritise the interests of an asylum seeker or migrant over a resident of your country. Yet that is what you are doing when you increase the violent crime rate knowingly through your asylum policy, and seek to change normal habits of reportage to suppress the fact.
Despite what the name-callers will allege, I do get the fact that it must be uncomfortable to be a low-abiding Sudanese person at the moment, affected by the appalling behaviour of a significant minority. I dont actually like espousing views that open me up to the cynical shriek of racism. But truth and justice are closely allied, and you cannot have one without the other, however uncomfortable truth may be. There are ways to embrace the Sudanese people who have the right to be here now, and we must do that. Equally, it is not in anyones interests to airbrush this problem from respectable news, or to import more of it over the next few years.
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Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Chinese were other twenty-five years ago. So were the Indians. There was no issue. Australians are clearly very accepting of people of any race as long as they, on average, fit in, work, and do no particular violence.
I agree.
Labelling the labellers isnt doing a damn thing.
There is a post on Facebook about Blacktown NSW and how their sudenese population has intregrated into the community. This is no different from the arguments about muslims. Respect the country who has taken you in.
I really do feel for the good law abiding sudenese families copping the sideways glances because of the actions of the feral few. If our laws cant stop gang violence or disarray then they need to be strengthened until they are effective, no matter what colour race or flavour they are.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Mugwump wrote: | I get where that is coming from, but I think its a well-intentioned kind of suppression and censorship.
The point of current reporting on the Sudanese issue is that we have already established that there is a real problem with youth from that group. ....... |
I'm sure you don't intend to do it, but we always need to qualify it with some youth of that nominated group. I know you don't mean all and I'm not trying to make a gotchya moment however that can be concerning without that sort of qualification.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| think positive wrote: | Chinese were other twenty-five years ago. So were the Indians. There was no issue. Australians are clearly very accepting of people of any race as long as they, on average, fit in, work, and do no particular violence.
I agree.
Labelling the labellers isnt doing a damn thing.
There is a post on Facebook about Blacktown NSW and how their sudenese population has intregrated into the community. This is no different from the arguments about muslims. Respect the country who has taken you in.
I really do feel for the good law abiding sudenese families copping the sideways glances because of the actions of the feral few. If our laws cant stop gang violence or disarray then they need to be strengthened until they are effective, no matter what colour race or flavour they are. |
Friggin' labelist
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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