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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ yawn all you like, you know you’re using the word “panic” completely falsely against any ordinary meaning of it, which is the point. Pravda shamelessly used language falsely to try and ridicule opponents, too.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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It's funny how conservatives become distressed whenever people capable of complex thought suggest that right-wing views are tending unacceptably towards fascism (or, as with many of the unacceptable views on here, actually right of fascism) - but whenever anyone expresses a middle-ground opinion such as a normal person of average political opinions anywhere but in VPT might express (that is, a barely "progressive" opinion), there seems to be a view that it is quite OK to reference the USSR and Venezuela.
Why do the fascists collect in such preponderance here? Is it Collingwood supporters? Anywhere else, the preponderance of ridiculous and extreme right-wing opinions on here would be a cause of serious concern.
It's like one long ad for One Notion. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ Fascism !? That’s not worth engaging with, other than to say that I referenced Pravda because it is the best known example of misusing language for propaganda purposes, other than perhaps Der Sturmer. Unlike you, I thought it far too tasteless to imply sympathy with the latter.
In that regard, you’re having a bad day. Go and read the footy pages until you have calmed down.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| You have no capacity at all to grapple with the newspeak implicit in your own posts. It’s either wilful or myopic. |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | If they report "100 youths..." we assume they're white or a mixed bag
If they're all Sudanese, they report "100 Sudanese youths"
If the offenders were all of Asian origin, guess what? They were all Asian.
Again, how the **** is reporting facts remotely racist? |
I don’t think it’s racist to report offenders’ ethnicity, and am concerned by attempts to suppress such information. But you’ve just fairly succinctly articulated why doing so is problematic. If they report “100 youths” – with the default white presumption – one assumes that we have an unemployment problem, a youth disenfranchisement problem, a drug problem, a teenage male problem. If they report “100 African youths”, that’s interpreted as an African problem. See what’s wrong with that picture?
Reporting should be factual, but not gratuitous. Truth lies not just in what you say, but also in what you omit. If you only mention race when the offender belongs to a minority group, then you’re shaping the way your readership views the crimes, the perpetrators and the social group to which they belong. So no, it’s not the facts that are racist, and it’s not the act of conveying them; it’s in where the focus is directed, and in what is omitted elsewhere. |
Actually, I don't see what's wrong with that picture. If you're trying to identify the root cause of a problem so you can address it, you need to drill down as far as you can.
I don't agree that only naming race when the offender is in a minority group shapes readership views, I think the language used in reporting it plays a far bigger part in that. Call it subliminal editorialising if you like.
But thanks for the sanity. Do you have an alternate way these things could be reported honestly and openly?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | You have no capacity at all to grapple with the newspeak implicit in your own posts. It’s either wilful or myopic. |
That's an interesting question I don't hear everyday: Do I have a capacity to grapple with the newspeak implicit in your own posts. I have a lot of friends on the Internet. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | You have no capacity at all to grapple with the newspeak implicit in your own posts. It’s either wilful or myopic. |
Don’t know if it’s wilful or myopic, but it’s not meaningless, as that seems to be. What are you talking about ? Here is the definition of Newspeak i:
| Wikipedia wrote: |
Newspeak is a controlled language, of restricted grammar and limited vocabulary, meant to limit the freedom of thought—personal identity, self-expression, free will—that ideologically threatens the régime of Big Brother and the Party, who thus criminalized such concepts as thoughtcrime, contradictions of Ingsoc orthodoxy.[2][3][4]
In "The Principles of Newspeak", the appendix to the novel, George Orwell explains that Newspeak usage follows most of the English grammar, yet is a language characterised by a continually diminishing vocabulary; complete thoughts reduced to simple terms of simplistic meaning.[5] |
I doubt that describes my writing. I suspect you just mean that you disagree with my views.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Mugwump wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | You have no capacity at all to grapple with the newspeak implicit in your own posts. It’s either wilful or myopic. |
Don’t know if it’s wilful or myopic, but it’s not meaningless, as that seems to be. What are you talking about ? Here is the definition of Newspeak i:
| Wikipedia wrote: |
Newspeak is a controlled language, of restricted grammar and limited vocabulary, meant to limit the freedom of thought—personal identity, self-expression, free will—that ideologically threatens the régime of Big Brother and the Party, who thus criminalized such concepts as thoughtcrime, contradictions of Ingsoc orthodoxy.[2][3][4]
In "The Principles of Newspeak", the appendix to the novel, George Orwell explains that Newspeak usage follows most of the English grammar, yet is a language characterised by a continually diminishing vocabulary; complete thoughts reduced to simple terms of simplistic meaning.[5] |
I doubt that describes my writing. I suspect you just mean that you disagree with my views. |
You need to Wiki 1984? |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ When someone considers me wilful or myopic, it’s reasonable to assume that they might doubt my précis of the concept of Newspeak had I given one. Wiki was the easiest place to cut and paste a definition that would show you have no idea what you were talking about.
Since Orwell is one of my heroes, I’m happy to entertain a discussion on pretty much any aspect of his work. He’s rather good and properly derisive on the topic of “fascist-sniffing”.
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Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | Actually, I don't see what's wrong with that picture. If you're trying to identify the root cause of a problem so you can address it, you need to drill down as far as you can.
I don't agree that only naming race when the offender is in a minority group shapes readership views, I think the language used in reporting it plays a far bigger part in that. Call it subliminal editorialising if you like.
But thanks for the sanity. Do you have an alternate way these things could be reported honestly and openly? |
I think a standard advisory editorial policy might be a good idea, whereby ethnicity is only reported on when relevant, but done so consistently. If police are looking for a suspect, it makes sense to refer to their skin colour; if two men rob a store or someone commits a rape or murder, or something, maybe it’s not necessary to mention it. As a rule of thumb, it might be a good idea to think of it this way: if you would mention a white criminal’s ethnic background, then it’s ok to do the same for someone from a minority group; if not, then don’t.
The above relates to specific crimes; but if, say, a certain ethnocultural group is over-represented in crimes as a broader issue, then that’s a reasonable thing to report – carefully and responsibly, of course. The minute such facts are being exaggerated or exploited for an anti-immigrant scare campaign (as the British Daily Mail does regularly), then that can have serious consequences, and those publications should be accountable for their actions.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
I largely agree with that.
Scary isn't it  
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Well, you know, even a stopped clock...
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| ^ But if two stopped clocks agree, would that not be spooky? |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Perhaps I'm just expressing my own concern about it. |
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