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Woods 
Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Location: Melbourne
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| Post subject: Re: Who are our now or never players? |  |
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| RudeBoy wrote: | Here is my list of players who have been on our list for while, but, for various reasons, mainly a history of injuries, have yet to cement a regular senior spot. For these players, I'd suggest that 2018 will be their make or break seasons, by which time they'll either become regular senior players or will face the chop.
Aish - comes from great pedigree, but so far has failed to deliver.
Scharenberg - cruelled by in juries, but this being his 4th (or is it 5th?) year, it's time for him to perform on the big stage and cement a spot in our best 22.
Sier - entering his 3rd year without a senior game, and without much VFL form either, he'll either make it this year or be delisted at the season's end.
Broomhead - has showed glimpses, but has so far failed to string many good games together. With Daicos, Kirby and the Brown brothers on the rise, Broomhead must improve this season or else it will be his last at the Pies.
Thomas - given a life-line in 2017, he (like Broomhead) needs to grab a spot and make it his own this year, or else he'll find himself surpassed by the next wave of young midfielders on our list. |
All good stuff there, except perhaps a bit harsh on Josh Thomas. He wasn't given a life-line in 2017, he worked his way back from the VFL team and then had a permanent place in the seniors.
This is the player profile of Thomas from the Collingwood website (written with rose-coloured glasses for sure, but some objective points in it nonetheless):
Returning from the exile of a two-year drug suspension, Thomas became the surprise package of Collingwoods side in the back half of 2017. The 26-year-old had no business cracking into a star-heavy midfield group, yet managed to play nine straight games from round 15 to round 23. His return game against Hawthorn was the 33rd of his career and came 1,038 days after his most previous appearance in the Black and White. Thomas took little time to settle in. He had 21 disposals and was mobbed by teammates at the 18-minute-mark of the first quarter when he kicked Collingwoods first goal of the afternoon.
It was a consistent stretch of VFL form with led Thomas back into the big time. His ball-winning abilities were at their very best during a seven-match stint which included four performances among Collingwoods best players. The Queenslander had 28, 30 and 31 disposals respectively in the early rounds to lead a midfield group largely consisting of younger faces. Thomas would return for a finals cameo in the VFL, however his best efforts couldnt help the Magpies progress past the Elimination Final.
I think Thomas' return in 2017 showed that he has what it takes between his ears to earn a place in the seniors best 22 for the start of season 2018 (providing this year's St. Kilda Festival comes and goes without incident)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYqK0vu-VYs |
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qldmagpie67
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | think positive wrote: | /\ not Sidey?
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Even Qld isnt silly enough to argue that we should sack both the Future Captain and the Reigning Club Champion.
Meanwhile, Langdon got coaches votes in 2 games, having been rushed back, underdone, into the team because hes an automatic selection, and Scharenberg nil. |
Yes Rashamon, and in all the other games Langdon played he didn't get coaches votes. |
And in all the games Scharenberg played, he didn't get a vote. |
P4S you have some what twisted the facts here ole mate.
Let me give you some precise stats.
Both players were drafted in 2013
Langdon has played 57 games to Scharenberg 14
Scharenberg averages more touches per game (20.2 to 19.1) and his disposal by foot is 83.8% compared to Langdon's at 65.8% by foot
Scharenberg averages more marks per game, rebound 50's per game, intercept marks per game, meters gained per game, frees for per game and less frees against per game compared to Langdon.
Scharenberg averages 1.27 goals kicked on him per game by his direct opponent compared to Langdon who's average is 3.05 goal iced on him per game.
There respective playing time is near equal with Langdon spending marginally more time on ground I'm guessing as they've managed Scharenberg work load.
Given Langdon has played 4 times the amount of games Scharenberg has played one would think he would be miles in front purely on expereince but that's not the case at all. In fact on all the important stats Scharenberg is streets ahead of Langdon and will only widen the gap the more experience he gets.
As for the club rushing him back I said at the time it was a mistake as his VFL form was ordinary. I was proven correct when he had bags kicked on him each of his first 4 games back including 2 games where he performed so poorly it was the difference between winning and losing those games.
Langdon may well play senior footy this season but currently I don't see him in our best 22. If he plays more than 6-8 games means we've had massive injuries and our finals chances are gone |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| qldmagpie67 wrote: | ...
Scharenberg averages more touches per game (20.2 to 19.1) and his disposal by foot is 83.8% compared to Langdon's at 65.8% by foot
...
Scharenberg averages 1.27 goals kicked on him per game by his direct opponent compared to Langdon who's average is 3.05 goal iced on him per game.
There respective playing time is near equal with Langdon spending marginally more time on ground I'm guessing as they've managed Scharenberg work load.
... |
Where did you get the goals conceded by direct opponent stat, QM67?
That's a handy stat. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Are they exactly the same? |
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qldmagpie67
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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| K wrote: | | qldmagpie67 wrote: | ...
Scharenberg averages more touches per game (20.2 to 19.1) and his disposal by foot is 83.8% compared to Langdon's at 65.8% by foot
...
Scharenberg averages 1.27 goals kicked on him per game by his direct opponent compared to Langdon who's average is 3.05 goal iced on him per game.
There respective playing time is near equal with Langdon spending marginally more time on ground I'm guessing as they've managed Scharenberg work load.
... |
Where did you get the goals conceded by direct opponent stat, QM67?
That's a handy stat. |
Champion data have stats available for all sorts of things with varying parameters. The accuracy is only the way they view match ups etc which I'm assuming might be as they line up at each contest or after a score. The unknown I'm guessing would be for defenders is when they hand players over during the course of play which may skew any stats. That being said I'm sure they do there upmost to get it right. |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| qldmagpie67 wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | think positive wrote: | /\ not Sidey?
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Even Qld isnt silly enough to argue that we should sack both the Future Captain and the Reigning Club Champion.
Meanwhile, Langdon got coaches votes in 2 games, having been rushed back, underdone, into the team because hes an automatic selection, and Scharenberg nil. |
Yes Rashamon, and in all the other games Langdon played he didn't get coaches votes. |
And in all the games Scharenberg played, he didn't get a vote. |
P4S you have some what twisted the facts here ole mate.
Let me give you some precise stats.
Both players were drafted in 2013
Langdon has played 57 games to Scharenberg 14
Scharenberg averages more touches per game (20.2 to 19.1) and his disposal by foot is 83.8% compared to Langdon's at 65.8% by foot
Scharenberg averages more marks per game, rebound 50's per game, intercept marks per game, meters gained per game, frees for per game and less frees against per game compared to Langdon.
Scharenberg averages 1.27 goals kicked on him per game by his direct opponent compared to Langdon who's average is 3.05 goal iced on him per game.
There respective playing time is near equal with Langdon spending marginally more time on ground I'm guessing as they've managed Scharenberg work load.
Given Langdon has played 4 times the amount of games Scharenberg has played one would think he would be miles in front purely on expereince but that's not the case at all. In fact on all the important stats Scharenberg is streets ahead of Langdon and will only widen the gap the more experience he gets.
As for the club rushing him back I said at the time it was a mistake as his VFL form was ordinary. I was proven correct when he had bags kicked on him each of his first 4 games back including 2 games where he performed so poorly it was the difference between winning and losing those games.
Langdon may well play senior footy this season but currently I don't see him in our best 22. If he plays more than 6-8 games means we've had massive injuries and our finals chances are gone |
Alternatively, you could just accept that the Future Captain has played 4 times as many games as Scharenberg because hes about 4 times as good. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| qldmagpie67 wrote: | | K wrote: | | qldmagpie67 wrote: | ...
Scharenberg averages 1.27 goals kicked on him per game by his direct opponent compared to Langdon who's average is 3.05 goal iced on him per game.
... |
Where did you get the goals conceded by direct opponent stat, QM67?
That's a handy stat. |
Champion data have stats available for all sorts of things with varying parameters. The accuracy is only the way they view match ups etc which I'm assuming might be as they line up at each contest or after a score. The unknown I'm guessing would be for defenders is when they hand players over during the course of play which may skew any stats. That being said I'm sure they do there upmost to get it right. |
So are those figures from the Champion Data prospectus? 3.05 goals conceded per game sounds highly unflattering to me. Put it this way: any forward kicking 3.05 goals per game would be a star. You may recall that in times past commentators were giving players votes for restricting Lockett to 'only' five goals, but I'm pretty sure Langdon has never played on Lockett, or even the ghost of Lockett. |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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| qldmagpie67 wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | think positive wrote: | /\ not Sidey?
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Even Qld isnt silly enough to argue that we should sack both the Future Captain and the Reigning Club Champion.
Meanwhile, Langdon got coaches votes in 2 games, having been rushed back, underdone, into the team because hes an automatic selection, and Scharenberg nil. |
Yes Rashamon, and in all the other games Langdon played he didn't get coaches votes. |
And in all the games Scharenberg played, he didn't get a vote. |
P4S you have some what twisted the facts here ole mate.
Let me give you some precise stats.
Both players were drafted in 2013
Langdon has played 57 games to Scharenberg 14
Scharenberg averages more touches per game (20.2 to 19.1) and his disposal by foot is 83.8% compared to Langdon's at 65.8% by foot
Scharenberg averages more marks per game, rebound 50's per game, intercept marks per game, meters gained per game, frees for per game and less frees against per game compared to Langdon.
Scharenberg averages 1.27 goals kicked on him per game by his direct opponent compared to Langdon who's average is 3.05 goal iced on him per game.
There respective playing time is near equal with Langdon spending marginally more time on ground I'm guessing as they've managed Scharenberg work load.
Given Langdon has played 4 times the amount of games Scharenberg has played one would think he would be miles in front purely on expereince but that's not the case at all. In fact on all the important stats Scharenberg is streets ahead of Langdon and will only widen the gap the more experience he gets.
As for the club rushing him back I said at the time it was a mistake as his VFL form was ordinary. I was proven correct when he had bags kicked on him each of his first 4 games back including 2 games where he performed so poorly it was the difference between winning and losing those games.
Langdon may well play senior footy this season but currently I don't see him in our best 22. If he plays more than 6-8 games means we've had massive injuries and our finals chances are gone |
Career average stats:
Disposals:
Langdon 18.98
Scharenberg 18.71
Contested Possessions:
Langdon 6.84
Scharenberg 4.79
Marks:
Langdon 5.18
Scharenberg 6.64
Contested Marks:
Langdon 0.63
Scharenberg 0.43
Tackles:
Langdon 2.77
Scharenberg 1.00
Rebound 50:
Langdon 2.81
Scharenberg 3.57
Inside 50:
Langdon 2.02
Scharenberg 0.93
Clearances:
Langdon 0.74
Scharenberg 0.21
1%:
Langdon 3.28
Scharenberg 2.00
Clangers:
Langdon 2.12
Scharenberg 2.07
Frees Against:
Langdon 0.68
Scharenberg 0.79
Langdon currently leads in 8 categories
Scharenberg in 3 categories
Tom Langdon draft pick 65 2013 National Draft.
Matthew Scharenberg draft pick 6 2013 National Draft.
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/T/Tom_Langdon.html
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/M/Matt_Scharenberg.html
_________________
He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| swoop42 wrote: | | qldmagpie67 wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | think positive wrote: | /\ not Sidey?
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Even Qld isnt silly enough to argue that we should sack both the Future Captain and the Reigning Club Champion.
Meanwhile, Langdon got coaches votes in 2 games, having been rushed back, underdone, into the team because hes an automatic selection, and Scharenberg nil. |
Yes Rashamon, and in all the other games Langdon played he didn't get coaches votes. |
And in all the games Scharenberg played, he didn't get a vote. |
P4S you have some what twisted the facts here ole mate.
Let me give you some precise stats.
Both players were drafted in 2013
Langdon has played 57 games to Scharenberg 14
Scharenberg averages more touches per game (20.2 to 19.1) and his disposal by foot is 83.8% compared to Langdon's at 65.8% by foot
Scharenberg averages more marks per game, rebound 50's per game, intercept marks per game, meters gained per game, frees for per game and less frees against per game compared to Langdon.
Scharenberg averages 1.27 goals kicked on him per game by his direct opponent compared to Langdon who's average is 3.05 goal iced on him per game.
There respective playing time is near equal with Langdon spending marginally more time on ground I'm guessing as they've managed Scharenberg work load.
Given Langdon has played 4 times the amount of games Scharenberg has played one would think he would be miles in front purely on expereince but that's not the case at all. In fact on all the important stats Scharenberg is streets ahead of Langdon and will only widen the gap the more experience he gets.
As for the club rushing him back I said at the time it was a mistake as his VFL form was ordinary. I was proven correct when he had bags kicked on him each of his first 4 games back including 2 games where he performed so poorly it was the difference between winning and losing those games.
Langdon may well play senior footy this season but currently I don't see him in our best 22. If he plays more than 6-8 games means we've had massive injuries and our finals chances are gone |
Career average stats:
Disposals:
Langdon 18.98
Scharenberg 18.71
Contested Possessions:
Langdon 6.84
Scharenberg 4.79
Marks:
Langdon 5.18
Scharenberg 6.64
Contested Marks:
Langdon 0.63
Scharenberg 0.43
Tackles:
Langdon 2.77
Scharenberg 1.00
Rebound 50:
Langdon 2.81
Scharenberg 3.57
Inside 50:
Langdon 2.02
Scharenberg 0.93
Clearances:
Langdon 0.74
Scharenberg 0.21
1%:
Langdon 3.28
Scharenberg 2.00
Clangers:
Langdon 2.12
Scharenberg 2.07
Frees Against:
Langdon 0.68
Scharenberg 0.79
Langdon currently leads in 8 categories
Scharenberg in 3 categories
Tom Langdon draft pick 65 2013 National Draft.
Matthew Scharenberg draft pick 6 2013 National Draft.
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/T/Tom_Langdon.html
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/M/Matt_Scharenberg.html |
On that basis Sidebottom is a lockin for future captain.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Best first year player 2014. Played all 22 games for Collingwood in 2015 (one of only 4 that did). Played the first 6 games of 2016, got injured in that 6th match and missed over 12 months with a troublesome knee. Started back in the VFL in round 7 in 2017 and was restored to the senior team for the Melbourne game and hasnt been out since. Hes a starting 22 player - or, at least, thats self-evidently how the Match Committee views him. Its possible that he could suddenly be relegated but there is not a shred of evidence to suggest thats what the Club wants. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| watt price tully wrote: | [quote="swoop42"][quote="qldmagpie67"][quote="Pies4shaw"][quote="watt price tully"][quote="Pies4shaw"][quote="think positive"]/ not Sidey?
[/quote]
Even Qld isnt silly enough to argue that we should sack both the Future Captain and the Reigning Club Champion.
Meanwhile, Langdon got coaches votes in 2 games, having been rushed back, underdone, into the team because hes an automatic selection, and Scharenberg nil.[/quote]
Yes Rashamon, and in all the other games Langdon played he didn't get coaches votes.[/quote]
And in all the games Scharenberg played, he didn't get a vote.[/quote]
P4S you have some what twisted the facts here ole mate.
Let me give you some precise stats.
Both players were drafted in 2013
Langdon has played 57 games to Scharenberg 14
Scharenberg averages more touches per game (20.2 to 19.1) and his disposal by foot is 83.8% compared to Langdon's at 65.8% by foot
Scharenberg averages more marks per game, rebound 50's per game, intercept marks per game, meters gained per game, frees for per game and less frees against per game compared to Langdon.
Scharenberg averages 1.27 goals kicked on him per game by his direct opponent compared to Langdon who's average is 3.05 goal iced on him per game.
There respective playing time is near equal with Langdon spending marginally more time on ground I'm guessing as they've managed Scharenberg work load.
Given Langdon has played 4 times the amount of games Scharenberg has played one would think he would be miles in front purely on expereince but that's not the case at all. In fact on all the important stats Scharenberg is streets ahead of Langdon and will only widen the gap the more experience he gets.
As for the club rushing him back I said at the time it was a mistake as his VFL form was ordinary. I was proven correct when he had bags kicked on him each of his first 4 games back including 2 games where he performed so poorly it was the difference between winning and losing those games.
Langdon may well play senior footy this season but currently I don't see him in our best 22. If he plays more than 6-8 games means we've had massive injuries and our finals chances are gone[/quote]
Career average stats:
Disposals:
[b]Langdon 18.98[/b]
Scharenberg 18.71
Contested Possessions:
[b]Langdon 6.84[/b]
Scharenberg 4.79
Marks:
Langdon 5.18
[b]Scharenberg 6.64[/b]
Contested Marks:
[b]Langdon 0.63[/b]
Scharenberg 0.43
Tackles:
[b]Langdon 2.77[/b]
Scharenberg 1.00
Rebound 50:
Langdon 2.81
[b]Scharenberg 3.57[/b]
Inside 50:
[b]Langdon 2.02[/b]
Scharenberg 0.93
Clearances:
[b]Langdon 0.74[/b]
Scharenberg 0.21
1%:
[b]Langdon 3.28[/b]
Scharenberg 2.00
Clangers:
Langdon 2.12
[b]Scharenberg 2.07[/b]
Frees Against:
[b]Langdon 0.68[/b]
Scharenberg 0.79
[b]
Langdon currently leads in 8 categories[/b]
Scharenberg in 3 categories
Tom Langdon [b]draft pick 65[/b] 2013 National Draft.
Matthew Scharenberg [b]draft pick 6[/b] 2013 National Draft.
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/T/Tom_Langdon.html
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/M/Matt_Scharenberg.html[/quote]
On that basis Sidebottom is a lockin for future captain. |
Go ahead, [b]Maybe the problem, try to give you some precise stats. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | think positive wrote: | /\ not Sidey?
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Even Qld isnt silly enough to argue that we should sack both the Future Captain and the Reigning Club Champion.
Meanwhile, Langdon got coaches votes in 2 games, having been rushed back, underdone, into the team because hes an automatic selection, and Scharenberg nil. |
Yes Rashamon, and in all the other games Langdon played he didn't get coaches votes. |
And in all the games Scharenberg played, he didn't get a vote. |
I ain't pushin Scharenberg's barrow and I'm not agin Langdon. However, lets see him do well ( and I hope he does do well) this season before we put the right player plaudits in place.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| swoop42 wrote: | ...
Tom Langdon draft pick 65 2013 National Draft.
Matthew Scharenberg draft pick 6 2013 National Draft.
... |
Swoop, their draft pick numbers are relevant to an evaluation of Hine and our recruiting team, but to little else. It's a sunk cost. It's only marginally more relevant than how much money Tom's parents spent sending him to Melbourne Grammar. Judging by his hair style, I think Tom didn't learn what his school teachers were trying to teach him. Or maybe times have changed. |
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qldmagpie67
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | Best first year player 2014. Played all 22 games for Collingwood in 2015 (one of only 4 that did). Played the first 6 games of 2016, got injured in that 6th match and missed over 12 months with a troublesome knee. Started back in the VFL in round 7 in 2017 and was restored to the senior team for the Melbourne game and hasnt been out since. Hes a starting 22 player - or, at least, thats self-evidently how the Match Committee views him. Its possible that he could suddenly be relegated but there is not a shred of evidence to suggest thats what the Club wants. |
The other possibility could be he only debuted due to our decimated injury toll (hence why only 4 players played 22 games) considering that if we hadn't had injuries to players like Scharenberg then the chances in him debuting would have been remote.
His career path then would have been a lot similar to that of Jack Frost would the exception he would have played less senior games before being moved on.
It's a mute point because injuries have hampered the start of Scharenberg career so we won't know until the end who's the better player. The eye test thus far does favour Scharenberg even though he's only played 14 games.
Langdon's form since the start of the 2016 season doesn't match up to it in 2015 when he was a deserving best first year player.
Time will tell if your prediction of him being our captain at any stage comes true but ss a betting man I'm prepared to lay very juicy odds on it never happening |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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You arent seriously comparing him with Frost?
Lucky for you, Tommy only plays another 243 games for Collingwood (160 as captain). |
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