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Melbourne CBD incident December 2017

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:16 pm
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Plenty of people have mental illness or drug issues and don't drive a car into a crowd of people. The common link with that behaviour seems to be Islam.

You could argue that anyone who has been radicalised to the extent of doing that kind of thing is mentally ill, doesn't make mental illness the primary cause.

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Dave The Man Scorpio



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:32 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
Plenty of people have mental illness or drug issues and don't drive a car into a crowd of people. The common link with that behaviour seems to be Islam.

You could argue that anyone who has been radicalised to the extent of doing that kind of thing is mentally ill, doesn't make mental illness the primary cause.


Very Well Said Stui.

Drugs and Mental Issues is NOT a Excuse.

He was Terrorist doing a Terror Act. As People on Drugs and Have Issues Mentally don't do that

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:51 pm
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I think we need more context before concluding that this is Islamic terrorism in any meaningful sense : his background, communications, drug use on the day, mental health history etc. he may well have believed he was being chased by a giant pink rhinoceros at the time, and a few muttering about the treatment of Muslims, while suggestive, doesn’t establish much.

There appears a strong relationship between drug abuse by young Muslim men and acts of terrorism in the West. If we are not prepared to take steps to shut down the drug trade, then we will have to get used to this.

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Skids Cancer

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Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:16 pm
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And while the bleeding hearts of the left continue their pathetic excuse making the next attack is being planned by the filth we let in.

You reap what you sow... fools!

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Skids Cancer

Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.


Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:19 pm
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Mugwump wrote:
I think we need more context before concluding that this is Islamic terrorism in any meaningful sense : his background, communications, drug use on the day, mental health history etc. he may well have believed he was being chased by a giant pink rhinoceros at the time, and a few muttering about the treatment of Muslims, while suggestive, doesn’t establish much.

There appears a strong relationship between drug abuse by young Muslim men and acts of terrorism in the West. If we are not prepared to take steps to shut down the drug trade, then we will have to get used to this.


You usually post qaulity... this is pathetic!

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:25 pm
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Skids wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
I think we need more context before concluding that this is Islamic terrorism in any meaningful sense : his background, communications, drug use on the day, mental health history etc. he may well have believed he was being chased by a giant pink rhinoceros at the time, and a few muttering about the treatment of Muslims, while suggestive, doesn’t establish much.

There appears a strong relationship between drug abuse by young Muslim men and acts of terrorism in the West. If we are not prepared to take steps to shut down the drug trade, then we will have to get used to this.


You usually post qaulity... this is pathetic!


Well, that’s a back handed compliment I guess. But it is actually true. I live in a city where we have had at least six of these outrages, and the pattern is pretty clear. Yesterday’s fits it, as did the Gargasoulis case. Look up the backgrounds of those involved in various London bombings, the Paris, Nice and Berlin car attacks, and now this. Habitual drug use is a very common feature of the perpetrators. Drugs don’t make most users do this - but they do disturb the minds of those who are open to doing this. Antidepressants and/or steroids (as in the Breivik case) often feature, too.

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Last edited by Mugwump on Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:26 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
Plenty of people have mental illness or drug issues and don't drive a car into a crowd of people. The common link with that behaviour seems to be Islam.


Yeah, but plenty of people who are Muslim (even radicalised Muslims) don’t drive cars into a crowd of people either. All you’re establishing there is that mental illness (even the specific issue or combination thereof that this guy has) is not a sufficient requirement for such behaviour. But of course we know that already. If we want to know why this happened, we need to look at a bigger picture – and that means considering all potential risk factors.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:46 pm
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David, nearly all cases of intentional mass murder in the world (and the West) today are done by Muslims in the name of Islam. That’s the important point. It is not “does believing in Islam make you do this?” It is “if you do this, is it because you have subscribed to Islam?”

Every specific case will have its own back-story, of course, but if you think that spending more money (your rather reflex answer to everything, I fear) on mental health will stop this, I think there is little evidence for that view. Most perpetrators are not mentally ill, as that term is normally understood. It may be worth spending more money to institutionalize people (as we used to) who should not be on the streets, but this is not the reason.

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:06 pm
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Of course we can’t easily fix global problems, and there’s no silver bullet for any of this. But I’d point out that, of the two incidents of this type to have occurred so far in Australia in recent times, only one has been committed by a Muslim (who may or may not have been radicalised), while both have been committed by men with a history of serious psychological issues.

Anyway, if we’re discussing any kind of public policy issue, it will involve money in some way. It’s just a question of where you think it should be directed (better policing / better public safety infrastructure / longer jail terms / better healthcare). Everything costs something.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:20 am
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David wrote:
Of course we can’t easily fix global problems, and there’s no silver bullet for any of this. But I’d point out that, of the two incidents of this type to have occurred so far in Australia in recent times, only one has been committed by a Muslim (who may or may not have been radicalised), while both have been committed by men with a history of serious psychological issues.

Anyway, if we’re discussing any kind of public policy issue, it will involve money in some way. It’s just a question of where you think it should be directed (better policing / better public safety infrastructure / longer jail terms / better healthcare). Everything costs something.


It indeed involves money, but not necessarily more money. Sometimes you have to respond to new events by taking money away from things that have declined in relative importance.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:41 am
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David wrote:
I have wondered if maybe that section of Flinders Street (from Swanston to, say, William Street) needs to be closed off to vehicles entirely. It's already pretty much impossible to drive down, and full of pedestrians at the best of times. We shouldn't be too reactive to individual acts like this, but at the end of the day no amount of concrete blocks on the footpath is going to stop that Elizabeth/Flinders intersection from being a target.


It may be that it should be closed off for aesthetic and civic reasons, but I think your comment that “we shouldn’t be too reactive to individual acts like this” is spot on. I think the concrete blocks were a disgrace. Like Hell-babies of the Berlin Wall,they pollute the visual aspect of the city and reinforce paranoia while doing absolutely nothing to stop this happening again.

These squat, ugly little statues should stand as monument to the typical arse-covering pointlessness of modern politicians and the babyish electorate. If someone wants to kill by driving into a crowd, they will do so. If you block one area they will choose another among the thousands available. It is a classic case of looking under the streetlight for something lost twenty yards away in the dark.

We really need to stand up to this nonsense, accept that civilization requires a certain amount of stoic defiance against barbarism, and address the root causes of the problem, not weave among our useless concrete band aids. It is of course unlikely that we will do so, because that would require provincial politicians to actually lead, speaking and acting in ways that might be unpopular, rather than strewing the city with the street furniture of a totalitarian state and ever-increasing “security”.

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think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:10 am
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I thought the same thing til I met my sister in the city for a camera session. We met on her break and She took several shots for work - she works in Police media- of the bollards for training. They do a couple of things - provide security for the area directly behind them for unsuspecting new arrivals to the area - there were the ones outside the station at Etihad, and they also provide a sense of security and community, many have really nice artwork, and people use them to sit on and eat their lunch. They are also a reminder to the public to be aware that something can happen and you need to be aware of your surroundings.

Her division does police training work for things like demonstrations, game day etc. she takes photos of the location with no one around, and then with the crowd so the force can work out the best places to have members assigned to for not just protection, but deterrence and building a sense of security.

Is the city nicer looking without them, definitely, but with ram raids on the increase, they are unfortunately a necessity.

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:36 am
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Mugwump wrote:
David, nearly all cases of intentional mass murder in the world (and the West) today are done by Muslims in the name of Islam. That’s the important point. It is not “does believing in Islam make you do this?” It is “if you do this, is it because you have subscribed to Islam?”

Every specific case will have its own back-story, of course, but if you think that spending more money (your rather reflex answer to everything, I fear) on mental health will stop this, I think there is little evidence for that view. Most perpetrators are not mentally ill, as that term is normally understood. It may be worth spending more money to institutionalize people (as we used to) who should not be on the streets, but this is not the reason.


It's not just money. Mental Health practitioners have to work within the confines of the Mental health Act (vic) and the charter of human rights (vic) both of which make it quite difficult to incarcerate or even administer treatment against someone's will. You could build 100 new institutions and they'd be largely empty except for the voluntary admits.

In one way, that's how it should be rather than the past model where people with treatable mental health issues were institutionalised (and often brutalised) to keep them out of sight of polite society.

These clowns are outliers and difficult to prevent with treatment although the Bourke st prick should have already been in Gaol if the justice system worked better.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:46 am
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^ TP, I disagree. Here’s why.

They provide “ a sense of security and community” : I really doubt that the sense of security and community would be any different without them there. If anything, I think people mix and engage better, and feel more secure, when they are not surrounded with the street furniture of Gaza.

“Many have really nice artwork”. Well, that was true of the Berlin Wall as well.
People can draw nice pictures on ugliness. I’d rather, instead, that they did not need to draw pictures on beauty.

“People use them to sit on and eat their lunch”. People can do the same with park benches - which have the advantage of not looking like tank traps or something else from Normandy ca 1944.

“They are a reminder to the public that something can happen.” I think this is an argument for covering the city in all kinds of dire warnings and paramilitary Belfast-Shankhill Road paraphernalia. But we are not Belfast ca 1990 : so why dress our rather lovely city accordingly ? And if we must be so reminded, is this really the best way ? Are we actually doing the terrorists’ work for them ? Is this not exactly what they want ?

I am sure sure the police like them. I just don’t think a defiant public should. The interests of the police and the interests of the public are common, but not identical.

Anyway, the key point is that if you put up bollards in place A today, the would-be ram-killer will smash through place B. They only make sense if you attach unique importance to human life in place A - and we do not - or if you are prepared to put them everywhere. Which God forbid.

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Last edited by Mugwump on Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:23 am
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stui magpie wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
David, nearly all cases of intentional mass murder in the world (and the West) today are done by Muslims in the name of Islam. That’s the important point. It is not “does believing in Islam make you do this?” It is “if you do this, is it because you have subscribed to Islam?”

Every specific case will have its own back-story, of course, but if you think that spending more money (your rather reflex answer to everything, I fear) on mental health will stop this, I think there is little evidence for that view. Most perpetrators are not mentally ill, as that term is normally understood. It may be worth spending more money to institutionalize people (as we used to) who should not be on the streets, but this is not the reason.


It's not just money. Mental Health practitioners have to work within the confines of the Mental health Act (vic) and the charter of human rights (vic) both of which make it quite difficult to incarcerate or even administer treatment against someone's will. You could build 100 new institutions and they'd be largely empty except for the voluntary admits.

In one way, that's how it should be rather than the past model where people with treatable mental health issues were institutionalised (and often brutalised) to keep them out of sight of polite society.

These clowns are outliers and difficult to prevent with treatment although the Bourke st prick should have already been in Gaol if the justice system worked better.


Sure, but if the mental health act and charter of civil rights is failing to protect the public, then parliament needs to bloody well act. That’s why it effing well exists, though it has long forgotten it. If it was happening in a town with a civic council, it would be fixed, and that is the model our representative democracy was meant to mimic, before our representatives became party drones lording it over their pliant constituencies.

One serious crime on mental health grounds and I think it might be best if someone stays under the care of nursie for a very long time. There are tens of broken bodies and tragically damaged lives here because the civil rights of the innocent and sane are trumped by those of the insane and criminal. And those tens of broken, stand for the tens of thousands over the last ten years.

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