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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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| Quote: | | relatively fortunate for the Aboriginal people that their inevitable colonization occurred under the occasionally idealistic British, rather than the available alternatives such as Japanese, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Belgian or Dutch |
The main competitor at the time was, I believe, the French. It could be argued that our indigenous community might've been better off if the French, rather than the British, had colonised the continent. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| thesoretoothsayer wrote: | | Quote: | | relatively fortunate for the Aboriginal people that their inevitable colonization occurred under the occasionally idealistic British, rather than the available alternatives such as Japanese, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Belgian or Dutch |
The main competitor at the time was, I believe, the French. It could be argued that our indigenous community might've been better off if the French, rather than the British, had colonised the continent. |
Fair point that they were the most likely alternative. We’ll never know, as every case is particular, but I doubt that they would have been more benign in their treatment of the native people than the British (see France’s abominable exploitation of Haiti right into the 20th Century). I agree they were a better alternative than the other European powers. Cuisine and winemaking would probably have been better !
In any event, it’s not the key point of my post, and I do not want to trivialize the very real hurt that the colonization caused to the Aboriginal people. The distant past is a history of conquests. It’s a bit philistine to look at it solely through the lens of the present.
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Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:13 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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luvdids 
Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Location: work
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| ronrat wrote: | | A few years ago JJJ had the "greatest of all time "100. From a distant memory they had something like 3 female artists. |
Can't imagine Triple M being much different in that department |
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ronrat
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand
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| thesoretoothsayer wrote: | | Quote: | | relatively fortunate for the Aboriginal people that their inevitable colonization occurred under the occasionally idealistic British, rather than the available alternatives such as Japanese, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Belgian or Dutch |
The main competitor at the time was, I believe, the French. It could be argued that our indigenous community might've been better off if the French, rather than the British, had colonised the continent. |
Could you imagine what would have happened had say the Dutch taken WA and Tasmania , the Germans Far north Qld, The french the Sydney area and Britain Victoria and SA. We could have WW1 at home.
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Annoying opposition supporters since 1967. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Who cares what would have happened in some alternate reality? Perhaps aliens could have landed in Australia and zapped everyone with their ray guns. All we know is that a grave act of dispossession did occur, that it did bring in a wave of suffering that still continues to this day, and that our national day commemorates the beginning of that process.
We don’t need to overthink this: the question is whether you want a national day that Indigenous people can embrace or one that, for obvious reasons, alienates and upsets them. Another question is whether the date that defines us should be the founding of white Australia – as a British colonial penal outpost, no less – or one that recognises that that is only one part of a bigger story (including Aboriginal existence and later non-Anglo immigration). Do we want to include, or (continue to) exclude?
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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We need to include the Aboriginal people, but not to the extent of denial of facts. When white settlement came, the Aboriginals were not a united nation but around 250 different nations across the continent, many at war with each other, and the differences in culture and physical attributes between nations was often stark.
They had no common language, culture, or anything else that could bring them together. As they were basically stone age subsistence livers, they were treated paternalistically as such by 18th century Englishmen.
By way of comparison, white men conquered the southern half of Africa and gave it back to the Bantu peoples in their various tribes who now run the show, but they weren't the original inhabitants, these were the hotentots and bushmen, the latter of whom were classified the same as wild dogs and could be shot on sight.
I have issues with the whole sulking about "dispossession". It's like complaining that the paddock that you had a shanty on used to be yours now that it has a house on it that someone else built. You were never going to build that house, just live in the shanty.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ So, let’s say someone comes and knocks your house down one day without your permission, builds a 5-star luxury hotel and offers to rent you a bed in the boiler room. Reckon you’d have grounds to sulk?
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Damn right I would, I've paid for and improved the house.
But if they came along to the paddock as per the example, where I had a shanty, different argument.
I don't see any of those protesters wanting to go back to how it was prior to colonisation, most of them would die in a few weeks.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| stui magpie wrote: | We need to include the Aboriginal people, but not to the extent of denial of facts. When white settlement came, the Aboriginals were not a united nation but around 250 different nations across the continent, many at war with each other, and the differences in culture and physical attributes between nations was often stark.
They had no common language, culture, or anything else that could bring them together. As they were basically stone age subsistence livers, they were treated paternalistically as such by 18th century Englishmen.
By way of comparison, white men conquered the southern half of Africa and gave it back to the Bantu peoples in their various tribes who now run the show, but they weren't the original inhabitants, these were the hotentots and bushmen, the latter of whom were classified the same as wild dogs and could be shot on sight.
I have issues with the whole sulking about "dispossession". It's like complaining that the paddock that you had a shanty on used to be yours now that it has a house on it that someone else built. You were never going to build that house, just live in the shanty. |
Yes, it’s all imposing a modern narrative on history. There can be very, very few peoples anywhere on this earth whose ancestors weren’t conquered, or conquering, and usually both. And if you really believe that dispossession occurred, then have the courage of that conviction and give it back to the people from whom it was “stolen”, and/or pay rent to the landed collectives of history. I’m looking forward to being compensated by the Norman French for the Battle of Hastings. Do they do weeding ?
Nobody really believes that narrative enough to act on its implications, and the fashionable art of parading concern while evading any concomitant personal cost is not really a respectable activity in my eyes. We should not overthink it, indeed. A moment’s reflection will confirm that the arrival of the FF in 1788 was the most defining, direction-setting moment in Australian history.
If we want to be truly inclusive, have a day commemorating the nobility of Aboriginal Australia at some other point in the calendar. That the cultural revolutionaries do not want this, but want suppression of Australia
Day instead, shows that it’s not really about inclusion. It’s about power : “Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.”
How Mr Xi up in China, who treasures real power, must laugh at our vanity contests over gay marriage and whether a small minority can redefine our nationhood! Like two bugs grappling under a descending boot, it nearly defines the idea of decadence.
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Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:09 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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The British Isles were invaded and conquered so many times the locals should have installed a revolving gate on the coast with a toll booth, "next conqueror pay here"
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I just randomly chanced on this debate response by Christopher Hitchens about a not dissimilar question – I think it’s worth listening to:
https://youtu.be/3MNu2GNx-kQ
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | I just randomly chanced on this debate response by Christopher Hitchens about a not dissimilar question – I think it’s worth listening to:
https://youtu.be/3MNu2GNx-kQ |
I’d heard it before. A typically fluent and baritone performance from Hitchens, whose personal record on many things, from the Iraq War to Trotskyism, (note his salutation to “comrades” at the beginning) should make one pause before allowing his undoubted charisma to stop thought.
In this case, the analogy between the Elgin marbles and slavery seems to me forced and categorically invalid. His actual proposal on the topic under debate seems obscure, and its relevance to this question is even more so. There was no slavery of the Aboriginal people ; there was an incursion onto land with no settled pattern of ownership by one tribe - the English - at the expense of others. Aboriginal tribes themselves appear to have done this extensively, prior to white settlement. Indeed, the credible record of inter- and intratribal homicide and violence prior to, and during, the first period of white settlement is not well enough known.
In the process of that incursion/settlement/invasion, technologically advantaged settlers often acted with dreadful vigilantism and reprisals, while the government and law mostly sought to restrain them in a way that was reasonably enlightened, for the time (see Myall Creek, inter alia). Reality involving tens of thousands of humans is always more mottled than slogans, and even more so across hundreds of years of shifting values and belief.
In any event, if Hitchens is actually claiming that reparations should be paid, and volunteering to personally contribute to these, he would deserve some credit for consistency and principle. Given that he became a wealthy man, dwelling among the blood-mortared bricks he mentions, perhaps he did. I have not heard mention of it, however.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ Why does that surprise you? It's hardly a radical position for them to take, given broader left and centre-left views on the issue. I think most people would have been surprised if they didn't have a position on changing the date of Australia Day (it's likely within Labor that the real ideological struggle will take place over the issue).
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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I agree with Sue....
Aboriginal magistrate Sue Gordon opposes Australia Day date change.
WA’s first Aboriginal magistrate Sue Gordon says indigenous Australians face “far more important” issues than changing the date of Australia Day.
Rejecting the Greens’ new push to dump celebrations on January 26 out of respect for the First Australians, Dr Gordon said most Aboriginal people were more worried about housing, education, health and employment. She said governments had been talking about closing the gap “for decades” and it should be the priority.
“We’ve got a long way to go, and changing the date is not going to solve those issues,” Dr Gordon said.
Dr Gordon, who served on the Children’s Court bench for 20 years and chaired the Howard government’s Northern Territory intervention task force, urged MPs to put child protection first and implement the recommendations of the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse.
https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/australia-day-date-change-wont-fix-anything-ng-b88714240z
The greens are a furken joke!
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Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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