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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Post subject: Welcome to Collingwood / Farewell, #35,#1 Jaidyn Stephenson |  |
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Which would be what - that we shouldn�t use pick 6 on the �best junior footballer I�ve ever seen� if he has health or fitness issues? Now, there�s a new lesson.  |
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John LEWIN
Joined: 19 Aug 2017
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An interesting link. Obviously not the whole story but does deal with correlation.https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/article-abstract/8/suppl_D/47/495059?redirectedFrom=PDF
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chicken wing
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
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| K wrote: | | bally12 wrote: |
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Unknowns at this stage:
==========================================
...
- Health issue. It's a bit concerning the kid has to take 3 tablets a day for his heart problem. From the very limited info I've heard so far, his exact condition is still not confirmed. In my experience, I'd be getting 4th, 5th, 6th opinions if I was him, from the best experts I could find.
I know for a fact quite a few players need to take medication to calm their nerves because it results in their heart racing like crazy during a game to the point where they can pass out. The reasons can be many, including personality type, hereditary, breathing patterns, issue with the electrical function of the heart.
Again, I don't have enough info but have had some personal experience in this area. If they can rule out a functional heart issue, then I'd be taking a holistic view and understanding both his physical and psychological make-up. For example, if he's highly-strung, naturally excitable, fast-paced, perfectionist, has OCD, highly driven...then these factors can contribute and manifest in physical issues like "racing heart". Meditation, yoga, breathing exercises, psychotherapy, can all help here.
The last thing I want to see is people taking medications ongoing, for the rest of their lives, if they can avoid it..especially an 18yo kid. Needless to say, these medications come with a lot of side-effects.
With a bit of luck, the issue may even resolve itself over time.
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Yes, I agree it's a concern that his condition has still not been diagnosed.
But no, despite the fact that he is indeed a perfectionist, obsessive type, I don't think there's any chance this is related to psychology. Many players have ridiculous pre-game routines and become rather superstitious about it all. This is not OCD in general or in his instance.
It seems they did ECG tests on all the kids at the Combine, and that showed up an irregularity. I don't think psychological issues would manifest at that time in that way. I haven't seen any info regarding what extra tests were done after this at the behest of interested clubs (there were at least three clubs, I think). I certainly think they should do as thorough testing as possible. JS said they're doing genetic tests. One wonders why this wasn't done much earlier (like years earlier); maybe the cost was prohibitive, whereas now the clubs or AFL are bearing that.
On medication, it actually seems that it's 6 tablets a day (2x3). As I said previously in this thread, it's just Propranolol, a fairly innocuous beta-blocker. It actually has many uses, so that info doesn't tell us too much (but you wouldn't expect it to, since we already know they don't know exactly what the problem is)... though that seems a rather large dose.
I'm not concerned about Propranolol and its side-effects. I mean there are no 'health' side-effects I'm concerned about. There are some 'sports performance' side-effects. JS said it slowed his heart rate down by only a few beats. It can affect aerobic performance. It's a credit to him that he still ran a very good 2km time trial (6:21). Apparently, in elite athletes it can decrease their VO2max by 15%.
My biggest concern is the possibility of it being undiagnosed hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. In a previous post on another thread, I mentioned the case of Cuttino Mobley in the NBA, where you'd think they have ****loads of money to test player's health. It was thought he had an enlarged heart, and his teams (three different teams over many years, from memory) made him sign a waiver acknowledging it and waiving their liability. But when he was traded to the Knicks, it was found he had hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, after the Knicks doctor ordered an MRI. He then chose to retire.
The worst-case scenario for undiagnosed hypertrophic cardiomyopathy is too horrible to think about. I don't know what the false-negative and false-positive rates are if you do a full battery of tests, including MRI and genetic testing. But they definitely need to get this right, for the kid's sake. |
His condition is not undiagnosed. The base condition is classified according to a set of symptoms that span a range, from extreme to mild. His symptoms are very mild and therefore he is on the cusp of being 'formally' diagnosed with the condition. In any case, don't you think the club would have got 4, 5 or 6 different opinions? That's why it was such a last minute decision. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| chicken wing wrote: | | K wrote: | | bally12 wrote: |
...
Unknowns at this stage:
==========================================
...
- Health issue. It's a bit concerning the kid has to take 3 tablets a day for his heart problem. From the very limited info I've heard so far, his exact condition is still not confirmed. In my experience, I'd be getting 4th, 5th, 6th opinions if I was him, from the best experts I could find.
I know for a fact quite a few players need to take medication to calm their nerves because it results in their heart racing like crazy during a game to the point where they can pass out. The reasons can be many, including personality type, hereditary, breathing patterns, issue with the electrical function of the heart.
Again, I don't have enough info but have had some personal experience in this area. If they can rule out a functional heart issue, then I'd be taking a holistic view and understanding both his physical and psychological make-up. For example, if he's highly-strung, naturally excitable, fast-paced, perfectionist, has OCD, highly driven...then these factors can contribute and manifest in physical issues like "racing heart". Meditation, yoga, breathing exercises, psychotherapy, can all help here.
The last thing I want to see is people taking medications ongoing, for the rest of their lives, if they can avoid it..especially an 18yo kid. Needless to say, these medications come with a lot of side-effects.
With a bit of luck, the issue may even resolve itself over time.
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Yes, I agree it's a concern that his condition has still not been diagnosed.
But no, despite the fact that he is indeed a perfectionist, obsessive type, I don't think there's any chance this is related to psychology. Many players have ridiculous pre-game routines and become rather superstitious about it all. This is not OCD in general or in his instance.
It seems they did ECG tests on all the kids at the Combine, and that showed up an irregularity. I don't think psychological issues would manifest at that time in that way. I haven't seen any info regarding what extra tests were done after this at the behest of interested clubs (there were at least three clubs, I think). I certainly think they should do as thorough testing as possible. JS said they're doing genetic tests. One wonders why this wasn't done much earlier (like years earlier); maybe the cost was prohibitive, whereas now the clubs or AFL are bearing that.
On medication, it actually seems that it's 6 tablets a day (2x3). As I said previously in this thread, it's just Propranolol, a fairly innocuous beta-blocker. It actually has many uses, so that info doesn't tell us too much (but you wouldn't expect it to, since we already know they don't know exactly what the problem is)... though that seems a rather large dose.
I'm not concerned about Propranolol and its side-effects. I mean there are no 'health' side-effects I'm concerned about. There are some 'sports performance' side-effects. JS said it slowed his heart rate down by only a few beats. It can affect aerobic performance. It's a credit to him that he still ran a very good 2km time trial (6:21). Apparently, in elite athletes it can decrease their VO2max by 15%.
My biggest concern is the possibility of it being undiagnosed hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. In a previous post on another thread, I mentioned the case of Cuttino Mobley in the NBA, where you'd think they have ****loads of money to test player's health. It was thought he had an enlarged heart, and his teams (three different teams over many years, from memory) made him sign a waiver acknowledging it and waiving their liability. But when he was traded to the Knicks, it was found he had hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, after the Knicks doctor ordered an MRI. He then chose to retire.
The worst-case scenario for undiagnosed hypertrophic cardiomyopathy is too horrible to think about. I don't know what the false-negative and false-positive rates are if you do a full battery of tests, including MRI and genetic testing. But they definitely need to get this right, for the kid's sake. |
His condition is not undiagnosed. The base condition is classified according to a set of symptoms that span a range, from extreme to mild. His symptoms are very mild and therefore he is on the cusp of being 'formally' diagnosed with the condition. In any case, don't you think the club would have got 4, 5 or 6 different opinions? That's why it was such a last minute decision. |
JS said it's undiagnosed himself, on video (so we don't even need to trust sports journos to quote him accurately). He also said they're doing genetic tests. I think we can trust him to know the status of his own health. Don't you?
The classification of his symptoms is not the main issue. People can have conditions (including very serious ones) without any symptoms at all. They didn't start worrying because of some adverse symptoms. It seems all the kids got ECG tests at the Combine and his test revealed an irregularity. |
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Duff Soviet Union
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
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| blackandwhite4life wrote: | Very pleased with this selection.
I remember a bloke called Dale Thomas who kicked 5 goals in a major trial game and also starred on grand final day as a junior.
He turned out ok! |
There does seem to be a lot of Daisy about him. Good leap, speed, dash and courage to take the game on, but not great disposal. If we can get the first 6-7 years of Daisy's career, this is an excellent pick.
_________________
"We ain't gotta dream no more" |
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Duff Soviet Union
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
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| bally12 wrote: | Positives:
==========================================
- Sounds like a great kid with a good attitude
- Tall and can take a mark
- Has a great speed/endurance profile...can play midfield as well as forward. His 2km time would make him 4th on the whole Pies list, behind Phillips, Sidey, and Smith...except Jaidyn is a lot speedier than all those guys.
- Exciting player, who looks to take the opponent and the game on. This kid isn't going to go backwards like half our team. God do we need that.
Negatives / things to work on:
==========================================
- His kicking needs work, particular his ball drop. Swanny's ball drop was also pretty bad but he ended up being an very effective kick..there is hope. I'd be interested to see if he can develop a 55m metre kick which would elevate him into super dangerous player for us.
Anyway, he's joining good company in Treloar, Adams, Crsip, Greenwood, at the Collingwood Butcher club. Maybe they can all get together and compare notes.
Unknowns at this stage:
==========================================
- Class, composure in traffic, awareness, decision making.
- Health issue. It's a bit concerning the kid has to take 3 tablets a day for his heart problem. From the very limited info I've heard so far, his exact condition is still not confirmed. In my experience, I'd be getting 4th, 5th, 6th opinions if I was him, from the best experts I could find.
I know for a fact quite a few players need to take medication to calm their nerves because it results in their heart racing like crazy during a game to the point where they can pass out. The reasons can be many, including personality type, hereditary, breathing patterns, issue with the electrical function of the heart.
Again, I don't have enough info but have had some personal experience in this area. If they can rule out a functional heart issue, then I'd be taking a holistic view and understanding both his physical and psychological make-up. For example, if he's highly-strung, naturally excitable, fast-paced, perfectionist, has OCD, highly driven...then these factors can contribute and manifest in physical issues like "racing heart". Meditation, yoga, breathing exercises, psychotherapy, can all help here.
The last thing I want to see is people taking medications ongoing, for the rest of their lives, if they can avoid it..especially an 18yo kid. Needless to say, these medications come with a lot of side-effects.
With a bit of luck, the issue may even resolve itself over time.
Good luck Jaidyn. I can see exciting times ahead for the Pies  |
One of his goals was from 48 off basically one step, so I don't think that should be an issue.
And did you call Crisp a butcher by foot? I would....disagree.
_________________
"We ain't gotta dream no more" |
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chicken wing
Joined: 02 Apr 2003
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| K wrote: | | chicken wing wrote: | | K wrote: | | bally12 wrote: |
...
Unknowns at this stage:
==========================================
...
- Health issue. It's a bit concerning the kid has to take 3 tablets a day for his heart problem. From the very limited info I've heard so far, his exact condition is still not confirmed. In my experience, I'd be getting 4th, 5th, 6th opinions if I was him, from the best experts I could find.
I know for a fact quite a few players need to take medication to calm their nerves because it results in their heart racing like crazy during a game to the point where they can pass out. The reasons can be many, including personality type, hereditary, breathing patterns, issue with the electrical function of the heart.
Again, I don't have enough info but have had some personal experience in this area. If they can rule out a functional heart issue, then I'd be taking a holistic view and understanding both his physical and psychological make-up. For example, if he's highly-strung, naturally excitable, fast-paced, perfectionist, has OCD, highly driven...then these factors can contribute and manifest in physical issues like "racing heart". Meditation, yoga, breathing exercises, psychotherapy, can all help here.
The last thing I want to see is people taking medications ongoing, for the rest of their lives, if they can avoid it..especially an 18yo kid. Needless to say, these medications come with a lot of side-effects.
With a bit of luck, the issue may even resolve itself over time.
|
Yes, I agree it's a concern that his condition has still not been diagnosed.
But no, despite the fact that he is indeed a perfectionist, obsessive type, I don't think there's any chance this is related to psychology. Many players have ridiculous pre-game routines and become rather superstitious about it all. This is not OCD in general or in his instance.
It seems they did ECG tests on all the kids at the Combine, and that showed up an irregularity. I don't think psychological issues would manifest at that time in that way. I haven't seen any info regarding what extra tests were done after this at the behest of interested clubs (there were at least three clubs, I think). I certainly think they should do as thorough testing as possible. JS said they're doing genetic tests. One wonders why this wasn't done much earlier (like years earlier); maybe the cost was prohibitive, whereas now the clubs or AFL are bearing that.
On medication, it actually seems that it's 6 tablets a day (2x3). As I said previously in this thread, it's just Propranolol, a fairly innocuous beta-blocker. It actually has many uses, so that info doesn't tell us too much (but you wouldn't expect it to, since we already know they don't know exactly what the problem is)... though that seems a rather large dose.
I'm not concerned about Propranolol and its side-effects. I mean there are no 'health' side-effects I'm concerned about. There are some 'sports performance' side-effects. JS said it slowed his heart rate down by only a few beats. It can affect aerobic performance. It's a credit to him that he still ran a very good 2km time trial (6:21). Apparently, in elite athletes it can decrease their VO2max by 15%.
My biggest concern is the possibility of it being undiagnosed hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. In a previous post on another thread, I mentioned the case of Cuttino Mobley in the NBA, where you'd think they have ****loads of money to test player's health. It was thought he had an enlarged heart, and his teams (three different teams over many years, from memory) made him sign a waiver acknowledging it and waiving their liability. But when he was traded to the Knicks, it was found he had hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, after the Knicks doctor ordered an MRI. He then chose to retire.
The worst-case scenario for undiagnosed hypertrophic cardiomyopathy is too horrible to think about. I don't know what the false-negative and false-positive rates are if you do a full battery of tests, including MRI and genetic testing. But they definitely need to get this right, for the kid's sake. |
His condition is not undiagnosed. The base condition is classified according to a set of symptoms that span a range, from extreme to mild. His symptoms are very mild and therefore he is on the cusp of being 'formally' diagnosed with the condition. In any case, don't you think the club would have got 4, 5 or 6 different opinions? That's why it was such a last minute decision. |
JS said it's undiagnosed himself, on video (so we don't even need to trust sports journos to quote him accurately). He also said they're doing genetic tests. I think we can trust him to know the status of his own health. Don't you?
The classification of his symptoms is not the main issue. People can have conditions (including very serious ones) without any symptoms at all. They didn't start worrying because of some adverse symptoms. It seems all the kids got ECG tests at the Combine and his test revealed an irregularity. |
I am a doctor myself and I based my comments on the video you mentioned (ie. I don't have any additional information about his situation). He also mentioned that he has known about the issue since he was 16 (ie. pre-combine) and has been taking medication for it. So, it is safe to say that some sort of symptom prompted him/his parents to seek medical advice and on the basis of ECG's and other tests, his doctors made conclusions that resulted in a recommended course of action. The combine ECG simply alerted clubs to it.
So, to be clear - I have interpreted his comment of 'not even being diagnosed' as meaning that he does not fit within the spectrum of symptoms that constitute the definition of this particular condition. If that is the case, then the classification of his symptoms is central to the whole discussion. |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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FFS peoples, Nicks is becoming more like 'Days of our Lives' lately.
The kid has a mild condition of arrythmia, for which he takes medication and watches his diet. It has never affected his football, and the club has got him cleared by a range of medical experts, as fit to play.
Can't wait to see him play. Welcome aboard Jayden. |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| RudeBoy wrote: | FFS peoples, Nicks is becoming more like 'Days of our Lives' lately.
The kid has a mild condition of arrythmia, for which he takes medication and watches his diet. It has never affected his football, and the club has got him cleared by a range of medical experts, as fit to play.
Can't wait to see him play. Welcome aboard Jayden. |
The situation is critical but the patient is in a stable condition. I say we operate now. The man needs a hospital. Clearly this is a case requiring a heart transplant.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| RudeBoy wrote: | ...
Can't wait to see him play. Welcome aboard Jayden. |
+1. Looks like a ripper. Welcome to the Pies.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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ad4eva 
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Location: The 'G'
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The more I sleep on this selection the more I like it.
Cant wait to see this raw talent in the pre season matches up against men.
Re-assess is 2018 capabilities from there! |
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WhyPhilWhy?
WhyPhilWhy?
Joined: 09 Oct 2001
Location: Location: Location:
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Dave The Man
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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| RudeBoy wrote: | FFS peoples, Nicks is becoming more like 'Days of our Lives' lately.
The kid has a mild condition of arrythmia, for which he takes medication and watches his diet. It has never affected his football, and the club has got him cleared by a range of medical experts, as fit to play.
Can't wait to see him play. Welcome aboard Jayden. |
Spot On. He does the Right Thing and will never be a Problem
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I am Da Man |
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BBHS 
bbhs
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Location: Bellarine
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| His heart seem to be going OK in those highlights. Looks like an absolute gun |
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doriswilgus
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Location: the great southern land
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| He does look like an exciting prospect.He does remind me of a young Daisy Thomas,as others have said.Daisy was a great player for us-until he busted his ankle and decided to take up surfing instead.So if Stephenson can have the same sort of impact as him,then we've got a winner on our hands. |
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